been on both sides of this one, recently won a battle for a #1 as the little guy in the big boys pool, got several sitemails from coaches I didn't even know saying that was cool, and yes, I have seen this from your point of view more than once - seems to me like almost any change to recruiting is going to make it worse, yet it is nothing short of miraculous, how the distance / prestige based auction works at all, yet it seems to somehow or other distribute the recruits around the country in a manner that seems to almost work with some degree of predictability and fairness?????

Two of the top 3 uncommitted PG for the Class of 2010 are Brandon Knight and Cory Joseph.


BRANDON KNIGHT

Knight is considering UConn, Kansas, Kentucky, Florida, Miami, and Syracuse.

UConn and Kansas, OK. But Florida's coming off back-to-back NITs. Kentucky and Miami were in the NIT last year, too. Syracuse made the Sweet 16 for the first time in 5 years.

CORY JOSEPH

He's logically considering UConn and Texas. But the other three on his list are Minnesota, UNLV, and Villanova. Villanova's been strong the last 2-3 seasons but they're not in the prestige of UConn and Texas. UNLV??? NIT last year. Minnesota....very similar resume to the one you posted.

I understand that it's not a popular opinion, and I would be interested to hear about the examples of players going to 2nd tier schools where they just felt they were offered more in terms of playing time, etc. Not from a player's coach having recently arrived (i.e., Memphis with Calipari, W. VA and KState with Huggins), but to a school that had been consistently middling at best over the course of a decade with the same coach.

I have not only built, but tracked multiple teams as I have built them up from obscurity to success, using two-star, three-star, and, if I was lucky, four-star recruits. It is galling how stupid it is to have my A+ team challenged (and I did lose a recruit to him, two seasons back) by someone who is too stubborn to let go of anything.

[edit:]

alblack, we'll see who they actually sign with...

Quote: Originally Posted By colorblind79 on 12/30/2009

These are different leagues. He should be in the kiddie pool, where he belongs.

One more thing: You're putting way too much emphasis on the other team's recent history. Even the bottom level ACC teams are legitimate big-time programs that should be able to land top recruits every once in a while. We're not talking Maryland vs. Weber State, we're talking Maryland vs. another BCS school.

I do agree with you on one thing though, College Park is a shithole.

go to scout.com and look at UVA's (a middling team in a big conference)actual classes over the past 5-7 years and you'll answer your own question. look at the schools they've beat out for said recruits and you'll see some heavyweights in there.

there are countless examples for middle to lower tier BCS conference recruits.

its a ridiculous position to take that lower tier schools should bow at the feet of the A+ and take the table scraps just because you're an A+. everyone should just give up and give in because you've built a good program. that would be great for competition. come on man. read your own post. its not good.

Quote: Originally Posted By colorblind79 on 12/30/2009
alblack, we'll see who they actually sign with...

Of course they'll most likely sign with the big programs, which, gee whiz, is exactly what happened in this case!

CB, you also seem to be blaming the game engine for the actions of one coach, which actually feeds back to my real-life argument. If one coach wants to blow his entire wad on a 5-star player that should be his perogative, just like in real life where a coach at a small school might pull out all the stops to land a stud local recruit. It sucks to get mucked up in that, but I don't think that warrants a change to the overall system.

I was in a recruiting battle as a B+ prestige against an A+ prestige coming off a national title. I offered a start and 30 minutes and spent twice as much money as the A+ school. I was able to land the recruit but it took a huge effort. I think that seems about what it should be. A+ schools should not just have their pick of players...unless I am said A+ school.

Its easy enough to recruit with a high prestige. No need to make it easier.

Quote: Originally Posted By colorblind79 on 12/30/2009
I would be interested to hear about the examples of players going to 2nd tier schools where they just felt they were offered more in terms of playing time, etc.

Looking at the signings for 2010 shows the the #11 (based on the Rival ratings) center has committed to New Mexico. He turned down offers from Arizona, USC and Cal.

Jereme Richard will go to Illinois instead of Duke, Florida, Michigan St. or North Carolina (who all offered schollies)

The #9 center, Demarco Cox, picked Mississippi over Maryland

PF Kyle Marshall rejected two SEC schools, and Miami from the ACC, to sign with Butler

Xavier took Griffin McKenzie away from Ohio State, Wake Forest and Tennessee

Tobi Oyellii is going to Texas A & M. He turned down offers from Louisville, Georgia Tech, Marquette,and Oklahoma

Demetri Harris is going to South Carolina, rejecting bids from Florida, Maryland and Wake Forest

Rod Odum is going to Vanderbilt and not accepting offers from Arizona, Boston College, Louisville, West Virginia and Georgia Tech

Justin Martin picked Xavier over Big East power Louisville

Brandon Peters will play for Western Kentucky, not Memphis or Oregon St.

Gerald Coleman turned down UConn to sign with Providence.

First, its hard to compare real life to HD. You can't send out 20 campus visits in real life, let alone in 1 3 hour time period equivalent to real life. As you mentioned there is no, "I'm going to committ to UNC if they offer me no matter how many times the coach from East Carolina calls me, I've always wanted to play for the Heels".

Under your system, an A+ prestige program, in any given season w/ just 1 opening and little NT reward money could land a top player in the area if there are no other A level programs around. Perhaps realistic, but I'm not sure that's good for the game. One of the joys of the game is taking over a program and landing that 1 sweet spot recruiting class that turns you from a low B program into an A level program over the course of 3-4 seasons.

While I have no way of gauging the HD equivalent effort put into any kid playing basketball in the NCAA right now, there are plenty of examples of kids that were offered by high majors, but choose less prestigious schools for various reasons. OJ Mayo & Beasley were mentioned above. In the same class Chris Wright (top 50 national recruit) choose hometown Dayton and stuck with it even after Kentucky and others came calling. Heck, Chris even grew up a bit of a Kentucky fan. Kenny Frease choose Xavier over several Big 10 level schools. Former Xavier SF, something Duncan choose Xavier over Kentucky, I believe he was a 4 star type kid. LaSalle has a freshman that was top 50 nationally I believe and picked LaSalle over Villinova and others. When Greg Oden choose OSU, they're weren't exactly A+ prestige material. Derrick Rose went to Memphis over everywhere else he could have gone, and I could go on and on.

Recruiting remains the single biggest challenge year to year that you hold almost complete control over (at least once recruits are generated). Its already easy enough for an A level program to maintain that level, under your system you'd almost have to purposely mess up to drop a ton over an extended span, or at least not pay much attention. As it is now, an A+ prestige program can get lazy, greedy or arogant and get burned badly in recruiting a couple of years and see a big drop in prestige and be forced to work to get it back. I think that's good for the game.

Quote: Originally Posted By namshub on 12/30/2009
go to scout.com and look at UVA's (a middling team in a big conference)actual classes over the past 5-7 years and you'll answer your own question. look at the schools they've beat out for said recruits and you'll see some heavyweights in there.

there are countless examples for middle to lower tier BCS conference recruits.

its a ridiculous position to take that lower tier schools should bow at the feet of the A+ and take the table scraps just because you're an A+. everyone should just give up and give in because you've built a good program. that would be great for competition. come on man. read your own post. its not good.

This is a fair point and I am doing just this now...they've gotten a few four-star players and beaten teams like Florida, Maryland, and Arizona (and Georgetown, once, which is kind of impressive) for some recruits in recent years. Not Duke, UNC, North Carolina, or Kentucky, though.

http://virginia.scout.com/a.z?s=190&p=9&cfg=bb&c=4&yr=2004

They did beat Kansas for Sean Singletary...the season (2004) that Roy Williams Kansas for UNC.

They beat UConn for Gary Forbes in 2003- he transferred out to UMass after they fired Pete Gillen.

Devin Smith - 2002 - JuCo Soph taken away from Kansas. Plays in Europe. Beat Roy Williams for him - that's pretty impressive. He was at Junior College in Kansas - I guess he wanted out of Kansas. The other option for the kid was Iowa.

Quote: Originally Posted By taz21 on 12/30/2009

First, its hard to compare real life to HD. You can't send out 20 campus visits in real life, let alone in 1 3 hour time period equivalent to real life. As you mentioned there is no, "I'm going to committ to UNC if they offer me no matter how many times the coach from East Carolina calls me, I've always wanted to play for the Heels".

Under your system, an A+ prestige program, in any given season w/ just 1 opening and little NT reward money could land a top player in the area if there are no other A level programs around. Perhaps realistic, but I'm not sure that's good for the game. One of the joys of the game is taking over a program and landing that 1 sweet spot recruiting class that turns you from a low B program into an A level program over the course of 3-4 seasons.

While I have no way of gauging the HD equivalent effort put into any kid playing basketball in the NCAA right now, there are plenty of examples of kids that were offered by high majors, but choose less prestigious schools for various reasons. OJ Mayo & Beasley were mentioned above. In the same class Chris Wright (top 50 national recruit) choose hometown Dayton and stuck with it even after Kentucky and others came calling. Heck, Chris even grew up a bit of a Kentucky fan. Kenny Frease choose Xavier over several Big 10 level schools. Former Xavier SF, something Duncan choose Xavier over Kentucky, I believe he was a 4 star type kid. LaSalle has a freshman that was top 50 nationally I believe and picked LaSalle over Villinova and others. When Greg Oden choose OSU, they're weren't exactly A+ prestige material. Derrick Rose went to Memphis over everywhere else he could have gone, and I could go on and on.

Recruiting remains the single biggest challenge year to year that you hold almost complete control over (at least once recruits are generated). Its already easy enough for an A level program to maintain that level, under your system you'd almost have to purposely mess up to drop a ton over an extended span, or at least not pay much attention. As it is now, an A+ prestige program can get lazy, greedy or arogant and get burned badly in recruiting a couple of years and see a big drop in prestige and be forced to work to get it back. I think that's good for the game.

Good argument, taz. That's fair. I just really hate how year after year I have to worry about what UVA is going to do when he should be adapting in order to create a team full of 4-year players instead of shooting the moon for the occasional NBA early entry, and repeated failure.

well CB, w/ the way the game is set up, you should be looking and anticipating what UVA might do every year. As well as Georgetown, UNC, Duke, NC State, Richmond, Villinova, Saint Johns, Syracuse, Penn State, Seton Hall, West Virginia, Wake Forest, Temple, Rhode Island, etc... At least I look at all those programs prior to recruiting and look for areas I can exploit. Having been at Richmond prior to Georgetown, I've gone head to head vs UVA on several occasions and what he did this recruiting period isn't all that different than what he did at UVA when I was still at Richmond like 10 seasons ago.

In the end, you played things smartly, didn't get too greedy and I imagine didn't spend a whole lot of money on recruits other than the ones that signed with you. You strengthed your program while another in conference missed out, making it all that easier to mantain your prestige by winning games in conference. That should be nothing to complain about, if you ask me.

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Quote: Originally Posted By mniven on 12/30/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By colorblind79 on 12/30/2009

These are different leagues. He should be in the kiddie pool, where he belongs.

One more thing: You're putting way too much emphasis on the other team's recent history. Even the bottom level ACC teams are legitimate big-time programs that should be able to land top recruits every once in a while. We're not talking Maryland vs. Weber State, we're talking Maryland vs. another BCS school.

I do agree with you on one thing though, College Park is a shithole.

I take offense! I had Weber to a powerhouse!