I completely agree with everything billy g said, especially about running uptempo.
1/5/2010 3:37 PM
IF this was a game in which they simmed each game 1000 times or even 100 times and the results were the average of those results, then one would be absolutely shocked by a 43 point differential. But it is an analytic error to look for justification of a 43 point swing - it just happens.

Here, there were some factors that changed - like home court and maybe IQ - in a way that pushed in that direction, but all you need is one extreme outlier - one very unlikely event and maybe one somewhat unlikely result in the other game and you can get a 40+ delta.

Like, when Richmond beat Syracuse in 1991, the first time a 15 seed beat a 2 seed. Odds are that if they played 10 times that Cuse would have won by 20-30 points in most of those games. And if they played 100 times Cuse would have won some by 40 points.

It just so happened that those of us at Cole Field House that night got to see the one game where Richmond beat a great Cuse team - with 3 or 4 future NBA players.....

so, it is an odd result, an outlier, but I doubt it is more

1/5/2010 4:01 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By metsmax on 1/05/2010
IF this was a game in which they simmed each game 1000 times or even 100 times and the results were the average of those results, then one would be absolutely shocked by a 43 point differential. But it is an analytic error to look for justification of a 43 point swing - it just happens. Why exactly would someone be more shocked if a 43 point swing happened in 1000 games than if it happened in 2 games as it did here? There are 500 times the chances...its much more understandable for a 43 point swing to happen in 1000 games than 2.

Here, there were some factors that changed - like home court and maybe IQ - in a way that pushed in that direction, but all you need is one extreme outlier - one very unlikely event and maybe one somewhat unlikely result in the other game and you can get a 40+ delta. Wentworth Tech went from playing @Bridgewater State to going to a neutral location, so their location factor got better for the game, further compounding the 40 point swing.

Like, when Richmond beat Syracuse in 1991, the first time a 15 seed beat a 2 seed. Odds are that if they played 10 times that Cuse would have won by 20-30 points in most of those games. And if they played 100 times Cuse would have won some by 40 points. Real life is completely different from the sim. Their are so many real life factors that aren't included in the sim, human emotion, players "on" or "off", referee bias, etc, so its much more understandable to see a 43 point swing in real life than it is in a sim determined by concrete ratings and pre-determined coaching plans.

It just so happened that those of us at Cole Field House that night got to see the one game where Richmond beat a great Cuse team - with 3 or 4 future NBA players.....

so, it is an odd result, an outlier, but I doubt it is more I don't think saying its an outlier means that it should be justified. He's got every right to be ****** and he should be. I would consider quitting the game over a result like this...the result is rather unacceptable.



1/5/2010 6:01 PM
Dude colonels once again you try and blow things way out of proportions. He was trying to explain why things happen.

You try to say that there are more things in real life that change the outcome of games. Well there is randomness in HD that account for the real life randomness. It wont be the same outcome ever time, look at the WIS outcomes of NFL football for instance, it is always different each time.

12/30/09 am Wisconsin, Stout 13-13 184 205 Sim AI 26-17 -6 88-82 (OT) l
01/02/10 pm at Wisconsin, Stout 13-13 184 205 Sim AI 26-17 -16 83-53 w

Look at two of my games from this season at UWW in D3. There is a +36 for me. I am the better team and usually should win this matchup, it just happened that he got lucky in the first game and I took it to him the second game. The second game is probably an out-lier of what a normal result would be over the course of 1000 sim games.

When he is talking about the results of the sims of 1000 he is talking about the average score of all the matches would be not at the extremes but somewhere closer to the middle, just happened that it fell on both sides.
1/5/2010 6:21 PM
College of Charleston beat North Carolina last night for real. I am sure if they meet in the NT Carolina will win by 43. I agree that this game can be absolutely ridiculous sometimes, but so is real life college basketball. Whenever I know for sure that I am a lock, I get upset and throw the mouse (instead of the computer)
1/5/2010 6:23 PM
This kind of extreme randomness shouldn't happen, and the game should be less random than real life. Please stop comparing the sim to real life...2 completely different cans of worms.
1/5/2010 6:27 PM
Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/05/2010This kind of extreme randomness shouldn't happen, and the game should be less random than real life.  Please stop comparing the sim to real life...2 completely different cans of worms.



???? What should I compare this to?
1/5/2010 6:30 PM
itself....regular, logical results...just because extreme random games/outliers like this happen, doesn't mean that they are justified. Real life doesn't have concrete ratings that it bases itself off of, therefore its much more random and unpredictable for a myriad of reasons that the sim doesn't, can't, and shouldn't factor.
1/5/2010 6:33 PM
Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/05/2010itself....regular, logical results...just because extreme random games/outliers like this happen, doesn't mean that they are justified.  Real life doesn't have concrete ratings that it bases itself off of, therefore its much more random and unpredictable for a myriad of reasons that the sim doesn't, can't, and shouldn't factor.

I am assuming you are proposing that HD should not come close to simulating real life. The higher rated team should always win? Is that what you think works?
1/5/2010 7:14 PM
Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/05/2010itself....regular, logical results...just because extreme random games/outliers like this happen, doesn't mean that they are justified.  Real life doesn't have concrete ratings that it bases itself off of, therefore its much more random and unpredictable for a myriad of reasons that the sim doesn't, can't, and shouldn't factor.

There is a randomness to HD though, if it was set in stone than the game would be no fun. It is like real life though, this is supposed to mirror real life, if you want a game where a+b=c than go someplace else this isn't it.

They are creating a new HD engine that is in beta testing and trying to improve certain aspects. But, I want results where a+b+unknown=c. This is what they have right now and I am partly glad for it. I have ended up on both sides and it sucks when you lose but it helps keep the game unknown in the end.
1/5/2010 7:28 PM
Quote: Originally posted by jetsons on 1/05/2010
Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/05/2010itself....regular, logical results...just because extreme random games/outliers like this happen, doesn't mean that they are justified.  Real life doesn't have concrete ratings that it bases itself off of, therefore its much more random and unpredictable for a myriad of reasons that the sim doesn't, can't, and shouldn't factor.
I am assuming you are proposing that HD should not come close to simulating real life. The higher rated team should always win? Is that what you think works?

Seems to be what he proposes.
1/5/2010 7:29 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By schroedess26 on 1/05/2010
Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/05/2010
itself....regular, logical results...just because extreme random games/outliers like this happen, doesn't mean that they are justified. Real life doesn't have concrete ratings that it bases itself off of, therefore its much more random and unpredictable for a myriad of reasons that the sim doesn't, can't, and shouldn't factor.

There is a randomness to HD though, if it was set in stone than the game would be no fun. It is like real life though, this is supposed to mirror real life, if you want a game where a+b=c than go someplace else this isn't it. You need randomness to run a game, that's obvious and I support that. There seems to have been some extreme randomness/clustering in the RNG in one of those games, and that's what I'm taking exception with. Like I said, not only did the guy win by 41 in the first game, his location was more favorable entering this second game. A 43 point swing because his team switched tempos and got slightly better while Wentworth Tech improved as well? Unjustifiable in my eyes, and I don't really see how you can be "ok" with such outliers, especially this bizarre. btown should be ****** that this happened.

They are creating a new HD engine that is in beta testing and trying to improve certain aspects. But, I want results where a+b+unknown=c. This is what they have right now and I am partly glad for it. I have ended up on both sides and it sucks when you lose but it helps keep the game unknown in the end
1/5/2010 7:34 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By jetsons on 1/05/2010

Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/05/2010

itself....regular, logical results...just because extreme random games/outliers like this happen, doesn't mean that they are justified. Real life doesn't have concrete ratings that it bases itself off of, therefore its much more random and unpredictable for a myriad of reasons that the sim doesn't, can't, and shouldn't factor.

I am assuming you are proposing that HD should not come close to simulating real life. No, what I'm saying is that bizarre swings in real life are much more justifiable because of the human element whereas HD operates in a more controlled environment where you really shouldn't see that degree of swing, especially when Wentworth Tech's circumstances improved. It makes me think that the randomness is broke here....not all the time, but sometimes these kinds of things happen The higher rated team should always win? Nope Is that what you think works? and Nope
1/5/2010 7:38 PM
Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/05/2010itself....regular, logical results...just because extreme random games/outliers like this happen, doesn't mean that they are justified. Real life doesn't have concrete ratings that it bases itself off of, therefore its much more random and unpredictable for a myriad of reasons that the sim doesn't, can't, and shouldn't factor.

there are what, five thousand games simmed a day? and each has a large number of randoms involved in the simulation. the outcome of 5,000 sims of a single game is logically going to follow a bell curve. some are going to be outliers, surly you are not claiming that should not be the case?

suppose 1% on each side fall out of the 20 point mark from the expectation (surly not accurate, but probably not a terrible estimate either). that would be 50 times a day both ways, 100 total.

if you consider roughly half of the games are against an opponent you will play twice, there are about 2,500 of those a day. roughly 50 will fall in that 1%, and there is then a 1% chance the other game will go 20 points the either way. thats about half an instance per day (of the event that you will see a game between two teams who play twice where the spread of the two differentials is 40 or more). that is ignoring hca but hca only makes the event more likely.

all in all, i would say that is not that rare of an event. moreover, i gave reasons why it is significantly less surprising in the case presented than average. i don't think any conclusions about the randomness in the game, nor its brokenness, are justified based on this game. it simply is unexceptional.
1/5/2010 7:55 PM
Well said billy.
1/5/2010 8:09 PM
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