Phelan Postseason Topic

Quote: Originally posted by isack24 on 1/07/2010As sick as some people are of people questioning the vets, I've been getting a lot "I know because I'm a vet, so listen to me" lately.I'm not saying that's you, because you give an awful lot of great info, but this is just one of those situations where it isn't acceptable to say, "well...some vets think so, some people who have no idea just follow the vets, so that means that it is true."  I'm sure that someone who is a lot smarter than me can prove that the press is overly-effective.  This simply isn't proof.  Now, if 3 of 11 teams in Phelan run press, and yet 8 of 11 in the NT run press, well that's an indication.  Even then, it's difficult to say because maybe it's just that the best coaches run press.  And that may be because the press is more effective and they know it, or maybe it's just because that's what they picked.The fact is, VD cherrypicked 11 of the 64 teams.  Who cares about non-traditional teams?  Those teams might be more talented than the traditional ones.  It was an odd, small sample.Like I said, he might be right, but this doesn't even come close to proving anything.

oh, i agree with you 100% the example given proves nothing. when VD gives you a stat to demonstrate the press is overly effective, it would be very unwise to take it at face value :P also, i am not trying to pass judgment on the effectiveness of the press.

but, IF it actually turned out that for all of HD, 8 of 11 teams played press, or any defense/offense for that matter, that would be quite remarkable. i concede it proves nothing. but it is quite a strong indicator. forget about the people who have no idea what is going on, for a minute. for the remainder, do you agree there is a connection between their perception of reality and reality? it can very often be wrong, at an individual level. but if the community as a whole favored one set so strongly, i can't see how that wouldn't indicate that set was over powered.

when you put the people with no idea what is going on back in the system, they should select themselves randomly between the sets. unless, like you suggested, they are influenced by the community. but, that is a community with some idea what is going on, so i don't think they invalidate anything.

of course, this 8 of 11 scenario is totally made up. and i am not trying to suggest in the slightest that if a vet says the press is better, it makes it true. but, if the entire community so massively favors the press, while it does not prove anything... doesn't it make a pretty strong suggestion?

maybe i am not following you completely. i think i get what you are saying and agree with a lot of it. but i think there being a correlation between our perception of reality and reality (in the context of the sim) directly implies the community playing 8/11ths press would indicate the press was over powered. are you disagreeing with that implication? or the correlation between our perception of reality and reality?
1/7/2010 4:14 PM
No, I think I agree with that. If, in all of HD, 8 of 11 teams press, then I agree, that would be at least somehwat indicative that the press is stronger than other defenses.

I'm not sure if I would agree if it was only one division in one world (like Phelan D1), but yeah, if it was all of HD, then I would.
1/7/2010 4:22 PM
While I'm not quite as big of a press hater as VD, what I continue to find extremely unrealistic is the extremely low shooting percentages the many press/combo defenses are yielding.

I have no problem at all with pressing teams creating lots of turnovers, especially when the team's DEF ratings are good, but the fact that my teams (which are usually pretty decent) are frequently being held to under 40% shooting by pressing teams is incredibly annoying to me. The engine seems to act like virtually every shot against a pressing defense is contested instead of allowing for a decent number of easy layups and other uncontested shots that occur when a press is broken.

If the team going up against a press sucks, then yeah, they should be decimated by a good press, but when the team has excellent PAS and BH skills and still turns the ball over 25 times and shoots 39%, it's very unrealistic.

Beating a dead horse, I know, but I'm just as annoyed by it now as I was two years ago.
1/7/2010 4:26 PM
I know because I'm a vet, so listen to me.
1/7/2010 4:35 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By mniven on 1/07/2010
While I'm not quite as big of a press hater as VD, what I continue to find extremely unrealistic is the extremely low shooting percentages the many press/combo defenses are yielding.

I have no problem at all with pressing teams creating lots of turnovers, especially when the team's DEF ratings are good, but the fact that my teams (which are usually pretty decent) are frequently being held to under 40% shooting by pressing teams is incredibly annoying to me. The engine seems to act like virtually every shot against a pressing defense is contested instead of allowing for a decent number of easy layups and other uncontested shots that occur when a press is broken.

If the team going up against a press sucks, then yeah, they should be decimated by a good press, but when the team has excellent PAS and BH skills and still turns the ball over 25 times and shoots 39%, it's very unrealistic.

Beating a dead horse, I know, but I'm just as annoyed by it now as I was two years ago.

It has nothing too woith the press, it has to do with teams loaded with 95+ speed and Def
1/7/2010 4:37 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By mullycj on 1/07/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By mniven on 1/07/2010

While I'm not quite as big of a press hater as VD, what I continue to find extremely unrealistic is the extremely low shooting percentages the many press/combo defenses are yielding.

I have no problem at all with pressing teams creating lots of turnovers, especially when the team's DEF ratings are good, but the fact that my teams (which are usually pretty decent) are frequently being held to under 40% shooting by pressing teams is incredibly annoying to me. The engine seems to act like virtually every shot against a pressing defense is contested instead of allowing for a decent number of easy layups and other uncontested shots that occur when a press is broken.

If the team going up against a press sucks, then yeah, they should be decimated by a good press, but when the team has excellent PAS and BH skills and still turns the ball over 25 times and shoots 39%, it's very unrealistic.

Beating a dead horse, I know, but I'm just as annoyed by it now as I was two years ago.

It has nothing too woith the press, it has to do with teams loaded with 95+ speed and De
I don't think so. If that was the case, then M2M teams with excellent skill sets (including good speed) should be performing much better than they are. My good M2M teams are consistently yielding shooting of about 44-45%, yet many pressing teams are yielding shooting below 40%.

Check the Phelan DI stats page. 8 of the 10 teams leading the nation in FG% defense are running a press. That's ridiculous, given that there are plenty of M2M teams with 90 DEF ratings and good ATH/SPD.
1/7/2010 4:45 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By vandydave on 1/07/2010I know because I'm a vet, so listen to me
:)
1/7/2010 4:45 PM
Is Phelan a good world to use as an example?

I thought it was still a lot of SIMAI
1/7/2010 4:47 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By mullycj on 1/07/2010

Is Phelan a good world to use as an example?

I thought it was still a lot of SIMAI

How about looking at every world.

Of the Top 15 teams in FG% allowed, here is how many run a press or combo defense:

Tark:14 of 15

Phelan: 12 of 15

Allen: 10 of 15

Naismith: 10 of 15

Wooden: 9 of 15

Knight: 8 of 15

Crum, Iba and Rupp: 7 of 15

Smith: 6 of 15

1/7/2010 7:48 PM
Anyone not running a combo defense at this point is a dumbass.
1/7/2010 8:03 PM
that wis doesnt realize the accuracy of the above post and adjust the engine is even worse
1/7/2010 11:16 PM
Quote: Originally posted by vandydave on 1/07/2010I have two teams in Phelan D1, one made the PIT, one made the NT.These teams are all in the same tourney together - Kentucky, Connecticut, Duke, Kansas, Cal, Florida, Purdue, Illinois, Wake Forest, Pitt, Memphis - wanna guess which one?Indeed, the PIT.Did a brief look at the top 32 teams in the NT (1-8 seeds)- of those 32, around 11 or so (excluding my own, Houston) are what you might call non-traditional NT schools, non-power conference schools. Of those 11 schools 8 run press or press combo (based on IQ), 3 don't press.Draw your own conclusions...

I am not sure what your point is VD, but I am one of those non-traditional powers in the NT at Montana State. Yes I run the press as I do with all my teams -- frankly I wouldn't know how to recruit for any other defense at this point.

However, I would contend that my success this season has more to do with the average rating of my starters, 814, than my defensive choice.

I think that is true of most of the non-traditional powers in the NT. I think if there is any beef about that skew it would be to the fact that more of us are from the West where there is a clear recruiting bias because of the distribution of recruits relative to the large distances Midwest and EC schools have to travel to compete for those recruits.
1/8/2010 3:36 AM
Quote: Originally posted by weirdrash on 1/08/2010
Quote: Originally posted by vandydave on 1/07/2010I have two teams in Phelan D1, one made the PIT, one made the NT.These teams are all in the same tourney together - Kentucky, Connecticut, Duke, Kansas, Cal, Florida, Purdue, Illinois, Wake Forest, Pitt, Memphis - wanna guess which one?Indeed, the PIT.Did a brief look at the top 32 teams in the NT (1-8 seeds)- of those 32, around 11 or so (excluding my own, Houston) are what you might call non-traditional NT schools, non-power conference schools. Of those 11 schools 8 run press or press combo (based on IQ), 3 don't press.Draw your own conclusions...
I am not sure what your point is VD, but I am one of those non-traditional powers in the NT at Montana State. Yes I run the press as I do with all my teams -- frankly I wouldn't know how to recruit for any other defense at this point.

However, I would contend that my success this season has more to do with the average rating of my starters, 814, than my defensive choice.

I think that is true of most of the non-traditional powers in the NT. I think if there is any beef about that skew it would be to the fact that more of us are from the West where there is a clear recruiting bias because of the distribution of recruits relative to the large distances Midwest and EC schools have to travel to compete for those recruits.

814 rated teams are magic. Somebody needs to fix the engine.
1/8/2010 5:59 AM
Quote: Originally posted by tannermcc on 1/07/2010Anyone not running a combo defense at this point is a dumbass.

I guess I am a dumbass, because I found that combos were not as effective with a fast lineup and press alone. I guess they should take back my 2 NCs that I one with this strategy too.
1/8/2010 7:46 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By weirdrash on 1/08/2010
Quote: Originally posted by tannermcc on 1/07/2010 Anyone not running a combo defense at this point is a dumbass.

I guess I am a dumbass, because I found that combos were not as effective with a fast lineup and press alone. I guess they should take back my 2 NCs that I one with this strategy too


maybe just work on your interpreting skills, the point was that everyone should at minimum run a combo because of how skewed the engine is toward the press
1/8/2010 8:15 AM
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