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schroedess26
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Quote: Originally posted by ernesto_tubb on 1/20/2010A computer can't be random. It has to be programmed so it can't be real.  Close, but no cigar.

You can have a truly random number generator though as it can be created for external sources and imported into the computer. So in a sense its a number generator even though it is receiving its instructions from outside the computer environment and not the program itself.
1/19/2010 11:19 PM
dogget
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Fort Knox, here I come!
1/20/2010 9:02 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 1/19/2010
So if the randomness isn't/wasn't a problem, then why is seble changing where it originates from?

True random is still true random, with pseudo random you always run the risk of clustering and other problems. True random is generated by unpredictable factors, and that's what I really like about it, and I will always try to use it for my piddly games.

The reason is quite obvious and is the exact same reason that seble has decided to re-write the HD code into a new programing language - because he feels more comfortable with it.
1/20/2010 9:24 AM
seble
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Most of the points made already are correct so I won't delve back into that. The original engine used the standard VB RNG for quite a while and then at some point we switched to using a third-party RNG that was supposedly closer to true randomness and had some other useful random functions built into it. From testing we did, there was no noticeable difference between the two in game results, for the reasons given above.

For this release, the engine is being translated to C#, so that is the RNG I'll be using. I'm not switching because of any shortcomings, just because it's easier to use the built-in RNG.
1/20/2010 9:27 AM
metsmax
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I'm confident that this change means that in one or two games in ever eight or tens seasons in some world or other a rebound will be allocated to a different player because of the different RNG. And I am very concerned by that.

;-)
1/20/2010 10:16 AM
colonels19
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I could see this backfiring as I've seen seble ruin the NBA sim and because of the whole fact that WIS is going from an outside source to something in house...I can't say that I have a lot of faith in it. I think we could very well see more bizarreness than usual. The fact that the switch isn't being made because of any "shortcomings" makes me even less hopeful...this is just more or less a cosmetic switch, at least that's what seble is saying. It'd be nice if WIS could use that extra money to employ another programmer or 2.

Buena suerte
1/20/2010 10:24 AM
seble
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First of all, there is no money involved, so I'm not sure what that means. Secondly, this is not "in-house", as in we developed our own RNG. It's built into the programming libraries of C#, one of the most widely used languages for new development.
1/20/2010 10:50 AM
colonels19
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You weren't paying to use a third-party source? I think that says a lot in itself.

C# may be used worldwide, but as long as your fingers are in the pie and you're "controlling" it, there's always that possibility for destruction as far as I'm concerned.

Time and results will tell, but the fact that this is more of a cosmetic switch than a functional switch leads me to believe that we'll see the same, if not more bouts of extreme randomness to which you and other WIS customer servants will always justify with Chaminade over Virginia or Villanova over Georgetown.
1/20/2010 10:58 AM
seble
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I don't think you're going to find the same audience here for your randomness rants as you did with the e-monk mob in NBA.
1/20/2010 11:07 AM
zhawks
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Your act is getting old colonels.
1/20/2010 11:10 AM
schroedess26
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Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 1/20/2010You weren't paying to use a third-party source?  I think that says a lot in itself.C# may be used worldwide, but as long as your fingers are in the pie and you're "controlling" it, there's always that possibility for destruction as far as I'm concerned.Time and results will tell, but the fact that this is more of a cosmetic switch than a functional switch leads me to believe that we'll see the same, if not more bouts of extreme randomness to which you and other WIS customer servants will always justify with Chaminade over Virginia or Villanova over Georgetown.
Your acting like a rear-end, honestly you are colonels. Seble is simply stating what is going on as well as I was earlier. I don't make assumptions until I get a chance at the product. Also, Seble I wasn't trying to say certain it was that way, I just thought it was the most likely reason why you did the switch. It makes sense though to make everything in house cause then you have control over everything.

Colonels your going to think that I am simply just calling you names but your posts are completely uncalled for here. Keep your thoughts to yourself if they are that mean. I mean its one thing if its a normal forum poster that has been at ends with you and called you names or something but Seble from my experiences has been nothing but courteous and wanting to help with answers.

Also, if you think there is a chance of them messing it up then more than ever should you be in the beta instead of just complaining about it over here. Whens the last time you log over to the beta?
1/20/2010 11:18 AM
colonels19
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Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 1/20/2010
I don't think you're going to find the same audience here for your randomness rants as you did with the e-monk mob in NBA.
That was never the intent...I want a game that runs correctly all the time. Its nice to see you run to where the back-patters are and abandon a game that you completely ruined. If you don't think that extreme randomness is a problem in HD as well a myriad of other WIS games, I think you're lying to yourself, and as long as you use the 2 main college basketball excuses, your game can never be wrong. I've got how you operate down to a science. As I always like to say, the truth doesn't need an audience. Good luck. Nice job skirting my points in the process.
1/20/2010 12:06 PM
colonels19
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Quote: Originally Posted By schroedess26 on 1/20/2010Your acting like a rear-end, honestly you are colonels. Seble is simply stating what is going on as well as I was earlier. I don't make assumptions until I get a chance at the product. Also, Seble I wasn't trying to say certain it was that way, I just thought it was the most likely reason why you did the switch. It makes sense though to make everything in house cause then you have control over everything. You never played the NBA sim, you don't know what seble's capable (or not capable of) and if he's overhauling everything that this game is/was about, look out, it could get ugly.

Colonels your going to think that I am simply just calling you names but your posts are completely uncalled for here. Keep your thoughts to yourself if they are that mean. I mean its one thing if its a normal forum poster that has been at ends with you and called you names or something but Seble from my experiences has been nothing but courteous and wanting to help with answers. Seble is wildly unpopular in the NBA sim community...I kindly ask you to visit those forums. WIS even gagged seble from that forum once...that's unheard of.

Also, if you think there is a chance of them messing it up then more than ever should you be in the beta instead of just complaining about it over here. Whens the last time you log over to the beta? Time will tell...extreme randomness isn't necessarily something that's going to show itself immediately. I'm willing to give it a fair shot, but I'm familiar with the "artist" if you will and the fact that seble says this change is cosmetic not functional makes this change virtually worthless. Also, what kind of 3rd party RNG were they using exactly that they weren't paying for!?
1/20/2010 12:12 PM
metsmax
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just a note to remind the group that after colonel fulminated at length about his vision of the right way to do rankings, after many disagreed, after calling those who disagreed closed minded.....and after being urged to produce a sample of his ranking approach for one division in one world.....AND after folks volunteered to pull the data he said that he wanted....

...colonel swung and missed and bailed out

http://www.whatifsports.com/forums/threads.asp?ForumID=30&TopicID=404506&PagePosition=2

what credibility remains? unclear to me

here we have vague and general claims, insistence that a game should run "correctly" which reminds me a lot of how rankings should be done "correctly" - in that case based on a vision of SOS based on total ratings points, which seemed odd to a lot of folks

we have in colonel a poster full of sound and fury, signifying nothing
1/20/2010 12:44 PM
schroedess26
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I don't need to visit the NBA sim its a completely different world over here. In the NBA you have to take into account for crooked officials, players that go into the stands, and players taking guns into the locker room. Thats why I stick with the NCAA for watching and playing a game of.

Besides, looking at someones possible first project in sim games and his second would also be different at this level, or however many as you improve with time and experience. I think of the NBA sim as the minor leagues compared to the NCAA dynasty sim and we shall see. I along with a lot of other people are going to give him the benifit of the doubt from what he is showing so far in the beta.

Also, did he ever have a beta where over 300 people were included in making another engine for the NBA Sim?
1/20/2010 12:47 PM
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