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I'd like to see tweaks on scheduling where rejecting challenges carries some sort of penalty.

Other than making the elite jobs harder to keep. i.e, requiring a certain number of Level 5 Bowl Wins or appearances over the course of 5 seasons to keep your job.

I'd like to see teams have the chance to evolve into elites. If you're consistently putting a team into and winning Level 5 bowls that team should be able to earn that elite status and the advantages that go with it.

I love this idea! This is what WIS has needed for some time. If cebrake's Connecticut team had been a real-life team, they would be as popular as Penn State is in real life and would be an "Elite" in everyone's eyes. Perhaps his GD prestige was higher than some of the Elites in the game. But he still had to fight an uphill battle every year to keep it there.

So what if Troy State, Vanderbilt, Boise State, Kansas, Iowa State and Air Force were Elites? What is so wrong with that? Are people going to quit playing because their favorite school is no longer considered an "elite" school and isn't given built-in advantages that nobody else gets? I highly doubt it. Maybe one or two egotitical bastards, but not many. More likely, you'll get even more people trying to get into D1 to grab their favorite school.

But mostly, it is a good idea because you allow the very best coaches to coach the teams they actually WANT to coach. Most of the best coaches win and gravitate toward the current Elites because they understand the built-in advantages, not necessarily because they are fans of Texas, USC, and Florida. If the best coach in GD wants to try to take his alma mater of Louisiana Monroe or UNLV to the NC, he should be able to. THAT is what a SIM game is ALL about.

It is not about trying to see how close to real life we can get. It is about WHAT IF....

WHAT IF... Joe Paterno had been hired at Bowling Green instead of Penn State?

WHAT IF... Bear Bryant had been hired at Troy State instead of Alabama?

I think, first and foremost, that you must have Elites at each Level. Georiga Southern is an Elite D-II. I'd call Grambling an Elite.

At Year 1 the Elites would be based on Current History. Also, some would be much closer to losing that Elite Status due to Current History (like Notre Dame, and even Alabama although we are having a Return to Glory. I don't think 1 NC in 18 Seasons is Elite, but our History is chalk full so I would still call us Border Line Elite-On the Rise).

Perhaps D-III would not have Elites, to encourage moving up the Ladder to get those Elites, or perhaps those D-III Elites would not be open to the Public at Year 1 and you must show some success at D-III to move up to those jobs.

Now, on to how to handle Elites. I am not worried about what 'Benefits' they get. I am not in D-I to enjoy them, and the lower levels do not have such Elites to worry with. Still, as a player of this game I do have a vested interest in how things work at the higher levels for when I do rise in the ranks to play at those levels.

ELITE should be tiered. What I mean is you should have, I say, 3 Levels of Elite. When in the heat of a Run like Florida and USC have recently been in you would be Untouchable. What does that mean? Means you get a Free Year. You could wipe out (to a resonable extent) and be Okay. Field 15 Starting Freshman, scrap by with an 8 Win Season, and Reload for the next Run with no hitch. Still Untouchable. Now, if you don't hit the Marks for Elite on Consecutive, or even a 2 out of 3 Season range, then you go to Mid Elite. Mid Elite means you are still secure in your job, still get all the perks, but you better get back to those Level 5's and win those CCs quick. Then there would be Tier 3 of the Elites. THIS is the Dangerous Tier. This is the Entry/Exit Point.

Tier 3 is where I consider REAL ND and Alabama to be, each on opposite sides of this Tier. At Tier 3 you are in jeopardy of Losing your Job. Also, you are in Jeopardy of Losing Elite Status with the Team (making the Coach that busted his butt to get Elite Alabama very ****** at you when he gets his Dream Team and has to bust tail to try to regain what you lost).

Some teams will be programmed to kick you before you lose Elite Status. Other teams are ships that will go down with the Captain. These should Vary within each World (Stagg ND and Bryant ND may have different views on Coaches once they hit Tier 3 Elite, with Stagg booting the bum and hoping the next coach gets them back to the safety of Tier 2 and Bryant feeling he deserves the job and can turn it around on his own). Also, if a Team has a certain view and that view fails them multiple times (Don't fire Coach, lose Elite, Fire Coach. Back to Elite tier 3, don't fire coach, lose Elite, Fire Coach) they will Change Stance and the next Coach will have the Short Leash if they hit Tier 3 again.

So what happens when Alabama Moves to Tier 2? Does that bump anybody? No. There doesn't have to be any Schools in a particular Tier, although it is unlikely that would happen. There should also be no set number of Elites. You are only Elite if you Earn the Status. No arbitrary filling a slot with an undeserving team. You play like an Elite, you become an Elite. You don't play like one, you won't be one for long.

In other words, it won't take ND falling like a Rock to get, let's say, UCLA into the Elite Status.

HOWEVER, the REQUIREMENTS to become or stay an Elite should be high enough that you don't have 30 Elites roaming around. A mix of NC's and CCs, Total Wins, SOS, should dictate what an Elite is.

To summarize: Not Set Amount of Elites. Requirement stringent enough to not allow many Elites. 3 Tiers of Elite, only letting you know if you are Untouchable, Secure, or in Jeopardy of losing your Status. Each School has it's own Style (Keep Coach/Can Coach) when you fall to Tier 3. Elites based on Current History at Year 1. Elites at Lower Levels.

Good thoughts so far - keep them coming. I've only skimmed most of the posts so far, but I'll read more in depth when I have more time.

In general, what was proposed by carpe a while back is the same basic framework that I will prose. Here's how that system works (general now, specifics later):

The Elite system will be determined by a rolling (most-recent) 20-season window of a team's history. The most recent 10 seasons will count more heavily than the older 10 seasons out of that 20-season window. The alternative is that each season weighs a little more heavily than the previous season and graduate it across the entire 20-season window. But again, particulars can be hammered out later.

Each team will be scored on a combination of total wins, bowl wins, CC and NC, with heavier weight given to higher achievements (ie, NC is worth more than CC is worth more than bowl win). Also, higher level bowls will count for more than lower level bowls and partial credit will be given for making a bowl (since that is an achievement). Finally, Top 10 and Top 25 finishes could receive points, too.

As far as the startpoint, there are two ways it could be handled --

1) Elite status will not begin for schools until Season 20, which is the first season where we have a full 20-season window, or

2) The Elites will begin as they are now and then the system goes dynamic from there. This concept allows WIS to keep their pre-determined structures somewhat in place and leaves a good chance that the schools they want to be Elite will remain so.

Elite status will be determined at the end of each season, on the rollover (along with SRs-and-early-draft-entrant removal and scheduling). At all times, there will only be 14 Elites, so in order for a new team to gain Elite status, a current Elite will have to lose their Elite status AND a new team will have to gain Elite status.

Elite status eligibility will be determined by some minimum score (formula referenced above). If an Elite falls below that threshold AND a non-Elite has a score above it, the non-Elite would become Elite and the Elite would become non-Elite. Let's give two unbalanced examples:

1) Let's say two Elites drop below Elite status, but only one non-Elite goes above Elite status. In that case, only the lowest-score Elite of the two would lose their status and the one non-Elite would gain it.

2) Let's say one Elite drops below, but two non-Elite go above. In this case, the highest-scoring non-Elite would gain Elite status and the Elite would lose it. The second-place non-Elite would have to wait.

I propose this system to maintain a similar framework to the existing system, since WIS seems to like it.

As far as programming practicalities go, the idea that it's "too difficult" doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Each team undoubtedly exists as entries in a database on their servers with a bunch of team attributes - Team Name, Mascot, Colors, Location, Level, D-IA Tier (non-BCS, BCS, Elite), etc. Just make that D-IA Tier programmable on changeover. I refuse to believe that is not possible. And no, I wouldn't buy the "all worlds have to be the same" argument, because Connecticut in Heisman is decidedly NOT the same as Uconn in Warner.

Now, to determine a team's prestige, the system remains unchanged. Literally the only thing that changes is a team's "Tier" in their database entry for that world. Prestige within their tier is calculate exactly as it is now.

Whew... that was a lot to take in (sorry). We can delve into the particulars - how much to weight each accomplishment, how best to do the "diminishing returns" for older seasons, additions/subtractions/tweaks - in the coming days.

Quote: Originally Posted By tarheel1991 on 2/22/2010
unclevic - can you actually find instances of teams like Boise, Kansas, Air Force, Iowa St, Troy St actually winning enough games/championships/high bowls to qualify for elite status? I would be surprised if you find any sort of consistent run of success for those teams in a mature world.

Well, how about that, that's exactly my point, isn't it? It is abandoning any pretense at "realism" when any D1A team, or even any BCS team, can become an elite. And I think new customers would be scared off by worlds where they do not recognize the elites as fitting their opinion of an elite program. They wouldn't want to join what they perceive as such an unrealistic "sim." Since I am sure WIS knows this, and I am sure they want new customers, I am sure their answer that all D1A worlds must be the same is not going to change.

Quote: Originally posted by gt_deuce on 2/22/2010Elite status will be determined at the end of each season, on the rollover...At all times, there will only be 14 Elites...

I don't understand, what's the difference if a team is called "Elite" or not.

All that matters is the team's prestige, right? As it stands right now, the 14 most prestigious teams in any given world are not the 14 "Elites".

It seems to me that alot of the suggested changes in this thread are the way the game already works.

Quote: Originally posted by ebel331 on 2/22/2010

Quote: Originally posted by gt_deuce on 2/22/2010Elite status will be determined at the end of each season, on the rollover...At all times, there will only be 14 Elites...

I don't understand, what's the difference if a team is called "Elite" or not.

All that matters is the team's prestige, right? As it stands right now, the 14 most prestigious teams in any given world are not the 14 "Elites".

It seems to me that alot of the changes in this thread are the way the game already works.

Elites have a higher prestige ceiling than non-Elites. So let's assume two teams - one Elite and one non-Elite traded NCs every other season and, thus, had identical 20-year histories, the prestige of the Elite would be higher than the prestige of the non-Elite. That is the Elite advantage.

And if the 14 Elites all have recent CCs and some NCs sprinkled in, I would bet they are the 14 most prestigious teams... even if a few non-Elite BCS teams might have better recent histories.

I assure you, the Elite prestige advantage is sufficient to overcome a superior recent history by a non-Elite BCS team, unless that team has a MUCH better recent history (like multiple more CC and NC). Five more wins and one more CC for a non-Elite in the last four seasons isn't going to make that team more prestigious than an Elite as it stands right now, for instance.

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Quote: Originally posted by gt_deuce on 2/22/2010Good thoughts so far - keep them coming. I've only skimmed most of the posts so far, but I'll read more in depth when I have more time.

In general, what was proposed by carpe a while back is the same basic framework that I will prose. Here's how that system works (general now, specifics later):

The Elite system will be determined by a rolling (most-recent) 20-season window of a team's history. The most recent 10 seasons will count more heavily than the older 10 seasons out of that 20-season window. The alternative is that each season weighs a little more heavily than the previous season and graduate it across the entire 20-season window. But again, particulars can be hammered out later.

Each team will be scored on a combination of total wins, bowl wins, CC and NC, with heavier weight given to higher achievements (ie, NC is worth more than CC is worth more than bowl win). Also, higher level bowls will count for more than lower level bowls and partial credit will be given for making a bowl (since that is an achievement). Finally, Top 10 and Top 25 finishes could receive points, too.

As far as the startpoint, there are two ways it could be handled --

1) Elite status will not begin for schools until Season 20, which is the first season where we have a full 20-season window, or

2) The Elites will begin as they are now and then the system goes dynamic from there. This concept allows WIS to keep their pre-determined structures somewhat in place and leaves a good chance that the schools they want to be Elite will remain so.

Elite status will be determined at the end of each season, on the rollover (along with SRs-and-early-draft-entrant removal and scheduling). At all times, there will only be 14 Elites, so in order for a new team to gain Elite status, a current Elite will have to lose their Elite status AND a new team will have to gain Elite status.

Elite status eligibility will be determined by some minimum score (formula referenced above). If an Elite falls below that threshold AND a non-Elite has a score above it, the non-Elite would become Elite and the Elite would become non-Elite. Let's give two unbalanced examples:

1) Let's say two Elites drop below Elite status, but only one non-Elite goes above Elite status. In that case, only the lowest-score Elite of the two would lose their status and the one non-Elite would gain it.

2) Let's say one Elite drops below, but two non-Elite go above. In this case, the highest-scoring non-Elite would gain Elite status and the Elite would lose it. The second-place non-Elite would have to wait.

I propose this system to maintain a similar framework to the existing system, since WIS seems to like it.

As far as programming practicalities go, the idea that it's "too difficult" doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Each team undoubtedly exists as entries in a database on their servers with a bunch of team attributes - Team Name, Mascot, Colors, Location, Level, D-IA Tier (non-BCS, BCS, Elite), etc. Just make that D-IA Tier programmable on changeover. I refuse to believe that is not possible. And no, I wouldn't buy the "all worlds have to be the same" argument, because Connecticut in Heisman is decidedly NOT the same as Uconn in Warner.

Now, to determine a team's prestige, the system remains unchanged. Literally the only thing that changes is a team's "Tier" in their database entry for that world. Prestige within their tier is calculate exactly as it is now.

Whew... that was a lot to take in (sorry). We can delve into the particulars - how much to weight each accomplishment, how best to do the "diminishing returns" for older seasons, additions/subtractions/tweaks - in the coming days.

See, I still think this is overthinking it. Prestige is hidden at every other level. Why can't it be hidden in DIA? Why do we need some sort of display who the current elites are? Let people figure it out by looking at recent success, the same way they do it at every other level. Use the exact same prestige formula as the other levels do (well, it's different because of bowls/playoffs, but basically the same) and add in a multiplier to assure that the non-BCS schools have a lower ceiling (which I think is certainly realistic). Why make it so complicated?

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Quote: Originally posted by gt_deuce on 2/22/2010Elites have a higher prestige ceiling than non-Elites. So let's assume two teams - one Elite and one non-Elite traded NCs every other season and, thus, had identical 20-year histories, the prestige of the Elite would be higher than the prestige of the non-Elite. That is the Elite advantage.

And if the 14 Elites all have recent CCs and some NCs sprinkled in, I would bet they are the 14 most prestigious teams... even if a few non-Elite BCS teams might have better recent histories.

I assure you, the Elite prestige advantage is sufficient to overcome a superior recent history by a non-Elite BCS team, unless that team has a MUCH better recent history (like multiple more CC and NC). Five more wins and one more CC for a non-Elite in the last four seasons isn't going to make that team more prestigious than an Elite as it stands right now, for instance.

1- I know what prestige advantage is. But I don't know how much it's worth. Nobody else seems to either.

2- I will bet there is not a single established world in GD where the top 14 most prestigious schools are "Elites".

3- I have a Temple team in Heisman that has never won any kind of trophy and I'd bet it is one of the most prestigious teams in the world.

Every time this issue comes up I make the same suggestion. GD should just use the HD system.

In HD any team can achieve the highest level prestige; however, certain schools like Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA (the "elites") have an easier time of raising a lower prestige and a harder time of dropping a higher prestige. Coupled with that is of course more stringent requirements to get and keep the job (with the added benefits comes added pressure).

Thus, under the HD system any team can have the highest prestige in the world and an elite could theoretically have the lowest prestige in the world, but the elites are always elite. I point to Alabama as a real life example of what the GD system should be i.e. from mid-level BCS program to national champion in three years with the right coach. Saban didn't do that at Michigan State as it wasn't elite, but he could do it at Alabama with the history, prestige, alumni, etc. Some schools will just always have advantages over other schools, which is what the elite system mimics.

Any system in which a four time defending national champion has a lower prestige then 14 other schools is a fundamentally flawed system (it may not quite be 14, but there will always be at least one elite with a greater prestige then a 4 time defending non-elite BCS school).