Posted by dcy0827 on 1/22/2011 12:21:00 PM (view original):
What I'd like to know is this, if Per only affects three point shots, and LP is back-to-the-basket and at the rim shots, what ratings would come into play on a fifteen foot mid-range jumper.  According to certain coaches, it isn't Per and it obviously isn't LP, so what ratings would determine whether a mid-range jumper is missed or made? 

And by the way Ugly, do you always get so defensive and hostile when someone disagrees with you?

i'm sorry if i was too defensive or hostile. i attack the perimeter rating because far too many times i see new coaches or old coaches who don't achieve any success sabotage their teams with players that have outstanding perimeter ratings, but no ath rating, or a modest speed rating and wonder why they can't win games. i would sacrifice perimeter rating all day to have a player that is excelling at ath rating and spd. i really do believe more players need to focus on the categories you mentioned above much more then they currently do.

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 1/22/2011 12:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 1/22/2011 12:21:00 PM (view original):
What I'd like to know is this, if Per only affects three point shots, and LP is back-to-the-basket and at the rim shots, what ratings would come into play on a fifteen foot mid-range jumper.  According to certain coaches, it isn't Per and it obviously isn't LP, so what ratings would determine whether a mid-range jumper is missed or made? 

And by the way Ugly, do you always get so defensive and hostile when someone disagrees with you?

i'm sorry if i was too defensive or hostile. i attack the perimeter rating because far too many times i see new coaches or old coaches who don't achieve any success sabotage their teams with players that have outstanding perimeter ratings, but no ath rating, or a modest speed rating and wonder why they can't win games. i would sacrifice perimeter rating all day to have a player that is excelling at ath rating and spd. i really do believe more players need to focus on the categories you mentioned above much more then they currently do.

Agree 100% with what you wrote.  But...........for those of us (to include you and I) who focus on the aforementioned categories, we need to keep that hush hush before everyone starts doing it.  :^)

This is from the FAQ ... if that means anything:

"Perimeter Improves mid-range to long-range shooting skills."

This is from DevChat -

I have been playing HD for a while after some discusions in the forums recently I have come to realize i might have no idea what some of the categories mean. I was wondering if you could give me a defintion for each of the ratings? ath spd reb def blk lb pe p bh we st dur

Perimeter (pe): refers to a player's outside shooting ability. Applies to all positions on the floor with this skill carrying more weight for perimeter players (PG, SG, SF) but also plays a role for post players. The ability to score both inside and outside makes any player more difficult to stop. For example, I'd prefer a PF with 80 low post and 30 perimeter over a PF with 93 low post and 2 perimeter.


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"I'd prefer a PF with 80 low post and 30 perimeter over a PF with 93 low post and 2 perimeter." Does this mean that the existence of perimeter skills makes a post player tougher to guard in the post in all situations, or is this only relevant if you play a post player at -1 instead of -2? (roguedog - Hall of Famer - 2:20 PM)

In all situations - perimeter doesn't only apply to 3pt shots - having a perimeter of 30 gives the player the ability take/make short jumpers which makes him more difficult to defend than a post player who is one dimensional.

 

Posted by dcy0827 on 1/22/2011 12:21:00 PM (view original):
What I'd like to know is this, if Per only affects three point shots, and LP is back-to-the-basket and at the rim shots, what ratings would come into play on a fifteen foot mid-range jumper.  According to certain coaches, it isn't Per and it obviously isn't LP, so what ratings would determine whether a mid-range jumper is missed or made? 

And by the way Ugly, do you always get so defensive and hostile when someone disagrees with you?

Per affects mid-range jumpers.  

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 1/22/2011 12:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dcy0827 on 1/22/2011 12:21:00 PM (view original):
What I'd like to know is this, if Per only affects three point shots, and LP is back-to-the-basket and at the rim shots, what ratings would come into play on a fifteen foot mid-range jumper.  According to certain coaches, it isn't Per and it obviously isn't LP, so what ratings would determine whether a mid-range jumper is missed or made? 

And by the way Ugly, do you always get so defensive and hostile when someone disagrees with you?

i'm sorry if i was too defensive or hostile. i attack the perimeter rating because far too many times i see new coaches or old coaches who don't achieve any success sabotage their teams with players that have outstanding perimeter ratings, but no ath rating, or a modest speed rating and wonder why they can't win games. i would sacrifice perimeter rating all day to have a player that is excelling at ath rating and spd. i really do believe more players need to focus on the categories you mentioned above much more then they currently do.

In Ugly's defense, I was one of those coaches he's talking about.  I have players with decent to good PER and LP ratings but who have abysmal ATH/SPD/DEF ratings for the most part.  And I've won a total of 6 games in the last 2 seasons (D2).

The issue isn't that PER/LP are worthless.  I don't think they are, but I'm in a situation at a D-prestige D2 school in the middle of western Texas where my choices are either ATH/SPD or PER/LP.  Players who have high values in both are usually going D1, and it's going to take me a few seasons of work to raise my prestige enough to get the really good pulldowns.  I'll try in the meantime but I'm severely limited by budget.

So given the choice, I'm going with Ugly's philosophy and targeting ATH/SPD/DEF this recruiting cycle.  I will worry about LP/PER later on after I assemble a team that can actually play defense.  If I had a high-prestige D2 school, or any D1 for that matter, I think I'd be recruiting ATH/SPD/DEF first, and LP/PER would be 1(b).

I've been noticing similar scoring trends as far as ATH / SPD vs LP / PER recently. I've got a D3 SF who's only decent in ATH / SPD (49 / 38 now, in his senior year) but has grown to a 69 PER (he started in the mid-40's, iirc). Given his steady growth in both PER and IQ, I expected that he'd be a much better 3-point shooter now than he was before. Here's his 3pt% by year:

Fresh: 42%
Soph: 39%
Junior: 37%
Senior: 33% so far

Now, there may be other factors at play - I'm playing a little tougher schedule this year, maybe it was the specific SF's I faced, etc. But I've got a RS freshman with better ATH / SPD and lower PER who's shooting 43% from 3pt this year.

Small sample size, obviously, but it's in line with what I've been thinking for a couple of seasons now: it seems ATH / SPD are having a bigger effect on scoring (both inside and out) than they used to.

i agree ugly that guards can be successful without great per and that many coaches overvalue per (also lp). but to say it only affects 3 point shooting is incredibly misleading at best, and probably, much worse than that.

further, i think the way per is overrated is different than what you say. the per rating of your non primary outside scorers is MUCH less important than some of their other ratings. but the per ratings of your top couple outside scorers can be EXTREMELY valuable. to represent it any other way is simply wrong in my opinion.

to me, a great 3 point shooter is worth a handful of mediocre ones. and thus, the weighting of the per rating in my evaluation of guards should range dramatically by role. probably more than any other rating, although lp for bigs would be close. there is at least a 3-4 times difference in my valuation of per depending on the role of my guards. so in short, in some cases, i feel you are very right, and in others, very wrong. looking at your teams just for an instant, i think you know this to be true - so, i think the problem is with the way you presented your idea, not your idea itself.

also, i can't help but say daalter/girt is 100% correct in saying a title in most d3 worlds today is not nearly as valuable as in some of the highly competitive d3 worlds of old nor the more competitive upper division worlds that exist today. that is not a knock on d3 coaches, i just simply can't see it any other way. there are some really, really tough d3 divisions out there though - and if you are in one of them, rocking it, then that can suggest you are an elite coach in the game. but i personally would value rocking an elite d3 conference much higher than winning a couple d3 titles in a weak world.

Posted by gillispie on 1/24/2011 5:24:00 PM (view original):
also, i can't help but say daalter/girt is 100% correct in saying a title in most d3 worlds today is not nearly as valuable as in some of the highly competitive d3 worlds of old nor the more competitive upper division worlds that exist today. that is not a knock on d3 coaches, i just simply can't see it any other way. there are some really, really tough d3 divisions out there though - and if you are in one of them, rocking it, then that can suggest you are an elite coach in the game. but i personally would value rocking an elite d3 conference much higher than winning a couple d3 titles in a weak world.

i play in an elite d3 conference, and i have 4 national titles, not 3, next time you try to knock a coach get their resumes right. by the way your opinion is silly at best. many of the best coaches in hoops dynasty have d1, d2 and d3 teams. many of those same coaches that you think are so terrific because they live in the d1 baseline world, which really is training wheels for coaches, also coach in knight. 

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 1/24/2011 8:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 1/24/2011 5:24:00 PM (view original):
also, i can't help but say daalter/girt is 100% correct in saying a title in most d3 worlds today is not nearly as valuable as in some of the highly competitive d3 worlds of old nor the more competitive upper division worlds that exist today. that is not a knock on d3 coaches, i just simply can't see it any other way. there are some really, really tough d3 divisions out there though - and if you are in one of them, rocking it, then that can suggest you are an elite coach in the game. but i personally would value rocking an elite d3 conference much higher than winning a couple d3 titles in a weak world.

i play in an elite d3 conference, and i have 4 national titles, not 3, next time you try to knock a coach get their resumes right. by the way your opinion is silly at best. many of the best coaches in hoops dynasty have d1, d2 and d3 teams. many of those same coaches that you think are so terrific because they live in the d1 baseline world, which really is training wheels for coaches, also coach in knight. 

i can see an easy way to end this debate, uglyskunk join gillispie or daalters d2/d1 conf, win NCs there, boom, conversation over. 

funniest part is that i looked deeper into gillespie's resume and see that he couldn't get out the first round of the nt at d3 and only made the 2nd round of the nt in d2. lol

Posted by uglyskunk3 on 1/24/2011 8:42:00 PM (view original):
funniest part is that i looked deeper into gillespie's resume and see that he couldn't get out the first round of the nt at d3 and only made the 2nd round of the nt in d2. lol

"next time you try to knock a coach get their resumes right"

just sayin

uglyskunk, you've been around longer than me.  Surely you know that gillispie is also coach_billyg.  Who has 11 titles at D2 and D3.  Check out what he's done at SIU Edwardsville in Tark.  Then tell us again how he can only coach at high D1.  Ok?

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/24/2011 9:13:00 PM (view original):
uglyskunk, you've been around longer than me.  Surely you know that gillispie is also coach_billyg.  Who has 11 titles at D2 and D3.  Check out what he's done at SIU Edwardsville in Tark.  Then tell us again how he can only coach at high D1.  Ok?

obviously i didn't know that he is billyg