How To Take Advantage of Good Fielding/Bad Range Topic

Trentonjoe
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In progressives,  I always try to have good fielders in CF and the MI. I think the SIM does it close to right,
3/28/2011 7:02 PM
mixtroy
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Here's an example of why I feel defense in this sim is overrated.  I just completed an OL season where my team had only 15 plus plays and 109 minus plays (only three teams had more) and was in the bottom third in fielding pct.  My starting SS and 2B are 01 Mark McLemore and 92 Bip, both of whom are virtual "minus play" machines as they both have relatively poor range at their respective positions.  However, the team still won 107 games and is now in the WS.  Thus, I think it's pretty clear that defense in this sim game is vastly overrated, especially if you have enough hitting and good pitching to negate it.
4/1/2011 1:58 PM
boogerlips
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Well, you're supposed to be able to select any player in the database and feel confident that you are getting a fair value for the price, so all that proves is that WIS's pricing system is working.
4/1/2011 2:26 PM
mixtroy
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Good point Boog. Keep the guys informed. Ha ha.
4/2/2011 3:19 PM
mixtroy
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Update.  This bad range team actually just won the WS after coming back from 0-3.  My 15 Pete beat 00 Pedro 2-1 in game 7.  So, you CAN win without "A" range fielders up the middle.
4/2/2011 4:19 PM
Trentonjoe
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Good defense is expensive....if price is an issue you probably shouldn't  pay for it unless you know to really take advantage of it.    
4/2/2011 5:28 PM
minnow
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And how do you go about taking advantage of it? Low K, low BB pitchers? I think one of the reasons the price is way too high IMO is because you can't easily build a team strategy around it. Offense on the other hand is easy... Use a park suited for your hitters and just add more offense. Defensive upgrades at each position saves runs linearly (with the possible exception of double plays with good range in the infield), while run production grows exponentially the more offense you keep adding to your lineup.
4/2/2011 5:54 PM
Trentonjoe
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I think the guys who can REALLY take advantage of good defense are the ones who maximize IP and PA.   If you have great D you need less IP (because outs are more frequent) and less PA (because your offense won't be as good).  Pair that with the low K, low BB pitchers in a park that somehow helps your offense and you have an optimal team.

Someone can do it, it ain't me.

I do believe that is easier and probably more efficient  to just construct a good offense though.
4/2/2011 6:23 PM
mixtroy
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The reason I don't lose much sleep over defense is because I believe the primary and most effective way of preventing runs is having pitchers (especially starting pitchers) who simply don't give up very many runs.  I'm a big believer in having bigtime starting pitching because, although a great defensive team will help you build up a nice shinny regular season record, when it comes to the playoffs, IMO, it's all about the starting pitching, and the better starting pitcher will generally win most of the time.  And when you have guys like 15 Alexander, 08 or 10 Walsh, Russ Ford, Jake Weimer, Johnson, Maddux, Joss, Pedro, Koufax, etc., you're team isn't going to give up many runs, no matter how poor the defense is.

I did an experiment once by drafting a team with superior defense and range in order to see for myself if superior defense made a significant difference.  Sure, I was among the leaders in defense, double plays and plus plays, but the bottom line is that the team was only a mediocre wildcard team with little firepower and second tier pitching and got knocked out in the first round. Why?  Because the so-called defensive guys were expensive.

 

4/2/2011 6:43 PM
mixtroy
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The same exact thing just happened to someone else in a just completed open league.  My team had only 325 double plays compared to the league average of 351 and the league leader who had 451. Why my poor defensive team went on to win the WS, the league's best defensive team, the one with 451 double plays, was knocked out in the first round. The reason is because the costly defensive guys left his team short on firepower and pitching.
4/2/2011 6:48 PM
Trentonjoe
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How many IP did your and the other team have?
4/2/2011 7:21 PM
mixtroy
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The other guy had a little over 1100 innings at Crosley Field, with his starting rotation consisting of 63 Marichal, 85 Gooden, 05 Clark Griffith and 86 Ricky Horton.  He also had 09 Mathewson but dumped him near the deadline.

On the horrible range team that i just won a WS with, my staff  had 1375 innings at Arlington Stadium, and my starting pitching was 08 Walsh and 15 Alexander, with Elton Chamberlain added to the rotation for the playoffs.

The debate about defense will go on forever. But I still say the team with the better starting pitching will win most playoff series, just as in real life baseball. I could be totally wrong, and I'm sure some would disagree, but that's my take on it.
4/2/2011 7:50 PM
Trentonjoe
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Well, the other guy did it right.

If I end up getting a team from flyingman cheap, I'll give it a whirl.  The old way to do was two Madduxesque studs and two cheap (1894 pitchers were crazy years ago) inning eaters.   


4/2/2011 8:07 PM
mixtroy
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With all due respect, Joe, I fail to see how getting knocked out of the playoffs in the first round with average pitching is doing it the "right" way, because I would take Walsh, Alexander and Elton in the playoffs anytime over Marichal, Gooden, Griffith and Horton. 

4/2/2011 10:50 PM
Trentonjoe
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I meant right in theory as opposed to execution.


4/2/2011 10:59 PM
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