Anyone notice high fouls numbers in guards? Topic

isack24
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No.  Has anyone had any success with CS who could suggest an idea of how to frame the issue so that I don't get back an "it happens" response?

I haven't had much success with CS is my life.
3/24/2011 1:40 PM
dacj501
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this is anecdotal evidence (at best) of an issue...gather a lot more data if you want to change the game...
3/24/2011 3:49 PM
isack24
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It might be a small statistical sample, but I think you should probably learn the definition of "anectodal evidence."
3/24/2011 3:52 PM
isack24
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This has been talked about on multiple coaches corners.  It might not be a widely-accepted theory, but I think there are plenty of people seeing the same thing.  Besides, I assume it's easier for seble to gather foul information.  I could do it, but I can't change anything even if I gather the info.  It seems pretty obvious to me that despite higher IQs, upperclassmen guards in Wooden (especially PGs) have higher foul numbers.  Huge sample size?  No.  Supportable?  Yes.
3/24/2011 3:57 PM
tianyi7886
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I personally think it's a sample size issue. I haven't seen anything suggesting upperclassmen guards are fouling more than before on any of my teams (with 1 team in wooden myself, and also a press team in tark).
3/24/2011 4:00 PM
dacj501
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Posted by isack24 on 3/24/2011 3:52:00 PM (view original):
It might be a small statistical sample, but I think you should probably learn the definition of "anectodal evidence."

anecdotal evidence

- 1 dictionary result
Main Entry:    anecdotal evidence
Part of Speech:    n
Definition:    non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts
3/24/2011 4:00 PM
tianyi7886
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Among wooden T25, besides your guard, the following are the only SR guards with a noticeable spike in fouls per game:

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Stats.aspx?tid=3773&pid=1668727
 
 
3/24/2011 4:07 PM
tianyi7886
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Here is a relevant question, did Hamline run uptempo last season?
3/24/2011 4:11 PM
isack24
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Posted by dacj501 on 3/24/2011 4:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 3/24/2011 3:52:00 PM (view original):
It might be a small statistical sample, but I think you should probably learn the definition of "anectodal evidence."

anecdotal evidence

- 1 dictionary result
Main Entry:    anecdotal evidence
Part of Speech:    n
Definition:    non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts

I'm not sure what is non-scientific about facts.  There were facts provided.  Facts are proof.

On the other hand, it is an extremely small sample size, I'll grant you that.

3/24/2011 4:43 PM
ike1024
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 3/24/2011 4:11:00 PM (view original):
Here is a relevant question, did Hamline run uptempo last season?
No, but I didn't run uptempo during non-con, and he averaged 3.0 fouls per game.
3/24/2011 4:45 PM
dacj501
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There was no science involved in the collection and presentation of the data in this thread prior to my post. I believe I used the phrase correctly.
More importantly (unless you started this thread to argue semantics) I do not believe this is a real issue, and merely suggested that you find more evidence to support your POV before presenting it to CS, since you had asked for help presenting to CS.
3/24/2011 4:49 PM
tianyi7886
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Posted by ike1024 on 3/24/2011 4:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 3/24/2011 4:11:00 PM (view original):
Here is a relevant question, did Hamline run uptempo last season?
No, but I didn't run uptempo during non-con, and he averaged 3.0 fouls per game.
Your non-conference also wasn't easy. Uptempo makes a big difference here, because you generate more possessions and players tire out faster; both increase fouls.

Out of the 3 players I listed earlier with noticeable foul spikes, 3 ran press, 1 is fb/fcp going normal, other 2 are fcp going up tempo. All 3 players are also the same kind of player, ath in the 30s, spd in the 70+. After viewing the T25 teams in wooden, I still believe ath matters quite a bit in fouls or has a pretty hefty weight in the overall equation. 
3/24/2011 4:51 PM
ike1024
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OK, maybe, it's not overall, but I am noticing more and more 4 and 5-foul games.

Player: ath/spd/def/IQ

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3900&pid=1669577: 75 / 54 / 91 / A -- 4 fouls in 3 of his last 8 games for an elite defender

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3868&pid=1715047 54 / 91 / 78 / A- -- 4 or 5 fouls in 22% of his games this season (5 of 22)

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=3189&pid=1755492 65 / 65/ 75 / B -- 4 or 5 fouls in 22% of his games and 3 or more in half.

I found those guys in about two minutes.  I can keep finding guys who have too many 4 and 5 foul games. 

Ultimately, you may be right, but it seems like there has been an uptick in guard fouls (especially since, at least in my experience watching college basketball, guards rarely foul out unless intentionally fouling at the end of the game).

3/24/2011 4:58 PM
ike1024
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Posted by dacj501 on 3/24/2011 4:49:00 PM (view original):
There was no science involved in the collection and presentation of the data in this thread prior to my post. I believe I used the phrase correctly.
More importantly (unless you started this thread to argue semantics) I do not believe this is a real issue, and merely suggested that you find more evidence to support your POV before presenting it to CS, since you had asked for help presenting to CS.
You're right, I don't want to get into a semantical debate.

I only asked because I was asked if I sent a ticket.  I wasn't really planning on it in the first place, but I do think that there is an issue with fouls that don't makes sense.  Like I said before, my guard, the only one I have tracked through box scores, isn't fouling guys who have high distros.  Unless my A+ defender is running around tackling people who are bringing the ball up, I'm confused where the fouls are coming from.
3/24/2011 4:59 PM
ike1024
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Here's some anecdotal evidence from a couple nights ago:

My guy: 30 ath / 72 spd / 58 def / A+ IQ
His guy: 33 ath / 66 spd

18:36: Harold Montalto is fouled in the backcourt by Joseph Byrne - foul #1 on Joseph Byrne, team foul #1

Let's keep in mind that I don't press, so this is a little annoying anyway.

16:28: Harold Montalto is fouled on the floor by Joseph Byrne - foul #3 on Joseph Byrne, team foul #6

OK, who knows what this one is about, but it obviously happens all the time.

11:30: Michael Walker is hacked by Joseph Byrne - foul #4 on Joseph Byrne, team foul #7

OK, now my A+ defender is hacking their PF, but again, it happens

2:51: Robert Blair connects on the runner from close range set up by Michael Bentley and the foul's on Joseph Byrne - foul #5 on Joseph Byrne, team foul #9

And now my A+ defender is hacking their backup 16-spd C on a "runner from close range." 

OK, I guess my problem is more where the fouds are coming from.  I play man-to-man defense.  I'm not sure how often my PG is in the lane to foul bigs.  I'm not sure how often my non-pressing PG is fouling in the backcourt.  It just seems weird to me.

And although this is 100% anecdotal, it seems like something changed in the past few seasons in this regard.  Maybe not.  Who knows?
3/24/2011 5:13 PM
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