Posted by tufft on 2/20/2012 7:50:00 PM (view original):
Everything I wrote after the first 2 sentences is speculative.  A quick (& likely ineffective )attempt to demonstrate that is what you are currently doing is cheating.  Maybe not to that extreme, but my example is just one or two steps further past the line you've already crossed.  You're in cheater land.

Once you open the door by asking another owner in your world for information you don't have, you are cheating.  That might upset the part of your self image that likes to think of yourself as a good person, but it doesn't change that what you're doing is cheating at a game.

Would be a different debate if we all had the same information, but we don't.

If you're playing poker with 6 people at the table & 3 of them are showing each other their cards and talking about how much they think they should bet on this hand or should they drop, are you going to stay in the game?  Since you posted it here, there's a reasonable chance you don't see yourself as cheating. But that doesn't mean you aren't.

The only ethical move you can make now is to come 100% clean. Make sure everyone in your world(s) knows who your buddies are. And, if you really want a clean slate, release the draft pick(s) you got based on any knowledge you gathered this way.  At least make that offer to the other owners.

If you were in a world with me, I'd give you that chance to make it right before appealing to WIS & the commish to have you tossed.  I wouldn't want to play in a world where some percentage for the other players were sharing information & tips. Either we're all paying our own cards to win, or some folks are cheating. I'd look for another world.

Once again I think you are gloriously riding down every slippery slope at a pace that is unwarranted, but I am interested in your thinking.  Let me come clean on a few other things I have done and see if you consider them cheating.

1.  Asked for advice on a trade involving players younger than 27 to players in other worlds. 

2.  Asked for advice on a trade involving only players 27 and older to guys to inside the same world (projections are therefore not relevant).

3.  Asked for advice on a trade involving players younger than 27 to someone in the world with the permission of person I was making the trade with.  (As in, "Do you think I am getting ripped off if I take Owner A's offer of Johnson for Smith?"

4.  Same as #3 but without permission.

I have done 1 and 3.  I don't think I have done 2 or 4.  I could be wrong on 2, but I know I an am not on 4.  I think we would all consider #4 wrong.  Would you consider any of the others wrong?  I see #1 as clearly ok.  I thought I was o.k. with #3, but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.  Using your logic I think #2 would be o.k. since we all see the same current ratings.  

Of course I saw the draft pick advice as ok since (A) I was not giving any sort of ratings, but my own informed appraisal of what those ratings would mean and (B) the people in question were drafting many spots after me and would have no reasonable shot of getting either guy (and in fact did not). 

I've also seen people with the first pick announce who they are drafting first and have done so myself since that could not possibly impact anyone else's pick since by definition said player would be gone.  I would think you are o.k. with that?

You're sharing, and getting, far too much information from your leaguemates.   No problem at all with asking for help from owners outside your world.

But I'm not in tufft-territory with your actions.    I just don't think you realized what you were/are doing with regards to the info sharing.  But you should stop.  Immediately.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/20/2012 8:50:00 PM (view original):
You're sharing, and getting, far too much information from your leaguemates.   No problem at all with asking for help from owners outside your world.

We are only talking about three total incidents that i am aware of, but honestly it didn't even occur to me that others would object.  Certainly those who I asked didn't think I was doing anything wrong, but since it seems to bother others I will stop.  If it makes you feel any better I took the pitcher and in his 3rd start he promptly had a 240 day injury (I actually asked you a question about him in the ask mike thread about whether he would bounce all the way back).

That you're posting all of this seems to indicate you didn't have super evil intent.

Not every player has the same info in HBD. Just like poker. Sharing information among a few players is a form of cheating.  Asking your pals for advice is sharing information.

If you're asking or sharing info impacted by budget with a pal, you're cheating.  That includes, "I see this guy as a 3B who can...,what do you think?".  If he has a higher budget & sees really bad range, how is your pal going to reply?  If he's playing to win, he tells you the guy looks like a future stud defensive 3B.  If the tells you anything but that, you're gaining the benefit of his higher budget.  A favor he can reasonably ask you to return when the situation involves an area where you have a higher budget.

Higher budget isn't always right, but it is more often more accurate than lower budget.

If you're posting who you're going to draft #1 in World Chat, everybody has that info.  IMO, not cheating.

I tried to give specific reasons & examples why I think what you're doing is wrong. None of my examples crossed any actions or ethical lines you haven't already crossed.  I believe you might feel badly about that, but it doesn't change what was done.

We're not in any worlds together, making it none of my concern.  You asked, which is why I posted an opinion. Do with my opinion as you like. We both agree you're free to disagree.

I personally don't see anything wrong with what you are doing in the actual scenario described or the follow up post.

My view is as for non-public players (draft and international) as long as your not sharing names or ratings on players you are not colluding. 

For public players (trades etc) I don't have a problem with anyone asking anyone for advice again as long as the advice being given isn't rating specific. 

Just my view, and I can see how others would disagree.

It's just a slippery slope to start down.  Discussing players, prospects or vets not currently on your team, behind the scenes within your world can be tricky.  I've done it and tried to be very careful about it in order to not cross a line.  In fact, you've witnessed the fallout when I've refused to "help" an owner in Hamilton.  I gave him all sorts of advice before he joined the world.   I largely cut it out when he joined because the questions he was asking didn't "feel" right.

I didn't read this entire thing, but murph another thing that I am not very fond of, that was going on in powers this year, is people during FA saying "well I guess I am out of the running for player x, 16m isn't enough"  

That didnt really bother me. No one was giving out or purporting to give out information on projections. Talking about what you are offering can be total BS, and if someone posts that they are out of the running for a FA, it would be risky if you are in the lead and decide to drop your bid.

I dont know if they ever fixed it..but you can tell how much someone is offering to all FAs on the trade proposal screen. I used that information when signing Riggan. I almost dropped the offer to him at the last minute, but didnt have the balls.

No, they haven't fixed it.   They said they were going to but it hasn't happened.

personally I am not sure I care either way then, but  I dont see how they are different.  What if the projections I am giving are total BS just so I can get someone I want better?

Always a possibility.   But if you're giving projections openly, I bet WifS would reprimand you if someone reported it. 

I think they are different because in your example,  someone throwing out #s on a FA isnt giving out information that another owner paid for. It is giving out information (or misinformation) that everyone has equal access to. With the FA comments, an owner would be taking a big risk if they drop their offer based on that, and the other owner jumps back in or leaves the offer on the table at the level they said they were bowing out.


Yeah, someone can be BSing on the prospects (or have horrible projections), When that kinda talk goes to projections, is where I draw the line, personally.

Here is the main way I think it effects FA, I dont think people would drop their offer.  What I think is more likely to happen is that team A is pumping money into Free Agent A and he keeps thinking he is getting closer.  Well then someone in the chat says "I am not leading after 16m, I am done with Free Agent A"  

Now Team A thinks to himself, "man I thought I was getting close I am still pretty far apart in money, I really need a pitcher, im going to take my money and throw it on Free Agent B instead.

If that is not something you "mind" then I guess its not a problem, I honestly don't know how I feel about it.  I hate when a player signs quickly before fair market value can work itself out, on the other hand If that team didnt have that extra information he may of gotten stuck with nothing.

makes sense. I see your angle.

Im starting to learn to not go after the top guys--the 3rd and 4th best players are usually bargains early on while everyone keeps leapfrogging each other on the top players.