Wow zubin sum, that is seriously Machiavellian, though apparently not warranted by the stats as you say. So what accounts for all the Vince Coleman/Tim Raines offenses with 40 HRs for the whole team? 

Is it that getting a catcher with a good arm has not yet caught on as a serious, but apparently according to all of you simple and effective way to counter the running game? 

Most of the teams in 1st place in my leagues (the ones crushing my teams that is) are based on that offense, hence my search for an antidote, the way the Irish republicans invented the submarine to counter the British Empire Navy (didn't do them any good, but that was a very competitive division to play in back then). 

But thanks everyone, for really clarifying this aspect of the game. Great, great posts. 

In the open league I am currently in 1977 Sundberg has 35 stolen bases against with 48 caught stealing. He batted .283 for the year with a .352 OBP.

Posted by italyprof on 3/19/2012 8:39:00 AM (view original):

Wow zubin sum, that is seriously Machiavellian,

I don't understand what you are saying is Machiavellian.

So what accounts for all the Vince Coleman/Tim Raines offenses with 40 HRs for the whole team?

The reason why low-HR offenses are successful in the sim is that in general HRs are a losing strategy.  With few exceptions, homeruns are easily normalized into doubles by deadball pitchers are big parks which leaves the owner of HR-hitting teams overpaying for offense.

So what accounts for all the Vince Coleman/Tim Raines offenses with 40 HRs for the whole team?

Both players are good bargains.  They are fast switch hitters that for whatever reason perform or over-perfrom in the sim.  In their best (bargain) years, both players play the OF adequately and don't leave their owners over-paying on defense.  1987 Vince Coleman is a good bargain in particular because he has adequate on base and good hitting (avg) abilities, moves from 1st to 3rd on singles and don't hit into DPs.  His average isn't wasted on XBH instead he just hits singles or talks walks which is perfect for a lead-off hitter.  Doing the math, Coleman's base-stealing is worth about 8 runs or 1 win per year which I admit seems low.  Raines in his best years (1985-1987) provides efficient middle of the order average driven slugging.  Again, being a switch hitter, his offensive stats hold up well in the sim.  He is fast so he doesn't hit into DPs and can advance from 1st to 3rd on a single.  The math suggests that his basestealing is only worth about 7 runs which, like Colemen, I think is low.  But still my overall point is both players would be pretty good bargains even if they didn't steal bases like they do.

Is it that getting a catcher with a good arm has not yet caught on as a serious, but apparently according to all of you simple and effective way to counter the running game?

A good catcher's arm will generally counter the running game.  And to that end, generally '75 Carter is all you need.  However keep in mind that half of a team's ability to prevent a stolen base is the pitcher's CS stat.  If you have pitchers that are horrible at preventing SBs, no catcher's arm with stop SBs.  More importantly, while a good team might be driven just by stolen bases, a great team tends to be much more multi-faceted.  Stolen bases are often an element of their game, but they can win without it.

Most of the teams in 1st place in my leagues (the ones crushing my teams that is) are based on that offense, hence my search for an antidote...

Can you provide a link?  I am guessing that stolen bases are just one element of some of these team's overall winning strategy. 

Oh, sorry. I meant the idea, that you mentioned others having, of getting weak arm catcher to encourage base stealing because according to the models it is counter-productive unless successful at that very high rate. 

Thanks for the discussion of Coleman and Raines. In fact I usually get Raines even if as a bench player because he has a lot of assets. Coleman seems too one-sided. You explain why very well. 

How do I check the Pitcher's CS stats, or the catcher's ? I don't remember seeing that even on the advance stats. or is it there and I wasn't paying close enough attention. 

Thanks again for lucid explanation. 

Posted by italyprof on 3/19/2012 6:10:00 PM (view original):
...Thanks for the discussion of Coleman and Raines. In fact I usually get Raines even if as a bench player because he has a lot of assets. Coleman seems too one-sided. You explain why very well.

In an open league (OL) you should not draft any bench player over $200K save for 2003 Wilson Delgado and the like.  Optimally you should draft 8 everyday players that total ~4750 PA then draft a bargain PH like Wilson Delgado (58 PA for $250K).  The remainder of your position players should be $200K scrubs that have either decent PH bats ('45 Clyde Sukeforth and '02 Howie Clark) or are useful in other ways.  (e.g. '1979 Tim Flannery is a decent defensive substitute at 2nd base.)

How do I check the Pitcher's CS stats, or the catcher's ? I don't remember seeing that even on the advance stats. or is it there and I wasn't paying close enough attention. 

As far as I can tell, you can't look it up in the WIS database anywhere.  You could check baseball-reference, but that isn't probably accurate or necessary.  Instead find yourself a catcher with a great arm like 1975 Gary Carter-- I know I keep mentioning him, but he might be the biggest position player bargain in the sim-- and just build a great team.  Really, I'd bet that if you are winning games allowing 60 or even 100 SBs over a season will not bother you much.  Now, if you absolutely have to stop the stolen base as a personnal vendetta against Whitey Herzog or something, draft a catcher with a 60% CS rate (1971 Munson or 1964 Roseboro) and pair them with some great deadball pitching.  (SB sucess rates in the 1800s and dead-ball era were not much higher than 55% overall.  Pitchers from those era probably won't hurt you in that regard.) 

Italyprof:
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no way to completely stop an opposing team's strategy or particular player.  Coleman is the greatest pure base-stealer in the history of baseball and he is going to steal against any catcher.  Ruth is the greatest homerun hitter in the history of the game and he will hit homeruns against any pitcher.  Maddox, Martinez and to a lesser extent Joss in their best years will win a lot of games for almost any team.  Instead of trying to stop a particular player or strategy, take reasonable counter-measures and just try to build a better overall team.

This sounds right. 

1971 Thurman Munson shuts down the running game. If you can live with his bat, his arm is the best I have seen in the sim.