Which of these active players will make the HOF? Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by toddcommish on 5/24/2012 7:27:00 PM (view original):
Oh boy, another thread for jrd_x to spout off about his "advanced metrics"...

This oughta be fun.
I need FIPx on the pitchers before I can determine who was good.
5/24/2012 8:43 PM
trsnoke
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We've had these threads before and there are always multiple people that pick Teixeira but I don't see how he has a shot.  He's a 32 yr old 1B with 319 HR and a career .280/.370/.527 line.  That's a good line but not Hall worthy for a 1B in this era.  He's .249/.346/.475 in his last nearly 1600 plate appearances so it doesn't appear he's gettng better.
5/24/2012 11:27 PM
Bilfert
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Posted by trsnoke on 5/24/2012 11:27:00 PM (view original):
We've had these threads before and there are always multiple people that pick Teixeira but I don't see how he has a shot.  He's a 32 yr old 1B with 319 HR and a career .280/.370/.527 line.  That's a good line but not Hall worthy for a 1B in this era.  He's .249/.346/.475 in his last nearly 1600 plate appearances so it doesn't appear he's gettng better.
I agree on Teixeira but lets consider that if he could hit 550 hrs, which is very possible as his power has not dropped off, with his superior defense his numbers will probably be comparable to Mike Schmidt.  They played in much different eras, but Schmidt was considered a God and a lock HoF.  Reggie did not have the defense once he left the A's and similar numbers and lock status.
5/25/2012 11:56 AM
jrd_x
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Schmidt was a great defensive third baseman.  Teixeira is a first baseman.

You see why that isn't a good comparison, right?
5/25/2012 12:06 PM
toddcommish
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Dammit, I agree with jrd_x.   You can't compare a 1B with moderate power during a homerun-happy era to a 3B who led the league multiple times in HRs and won Gold Gloves.

Schmidt is arguably the best 3B of all time.   Teixeira might not even be in the top 40 1B of all time.
5/25/2012 12:58 PM
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Bilfert
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Posted by toddcommish on 5/25/2012 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Dammit, I agree with jrd_x.   You can't compare a 1B with moderate power during a homerun-happy era to a 3B who led the league multiple times in HRs and won Gold Gloves.

Schmidt is arguably the best 3B of all time.   Teixeira might not even be in the top 40 1B of all time.
Tex has played 9 seasons and qualified for the top 5 in HR's in his league 5 times.  Two of the 9 seasons he did not qualify as he played in both leagues and hit over 30 hrs both times.  It is flattering I am sure that you refer to a guy that has hit 39 HR's twice in the last 2 years as a "moderate power hitter."

Again, I don't think that he is Hall of Fame worthy but I think the comparison is closer than you think.

Schmidt also did not face a computer generated shift.
5/25/2012 2:04 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by Bilfert on 5/25/2012 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 5/25/2012 12:06:00 PM (view original):
Schmidt was a great defensive third baseman.  Teixeira is a first baseman.

You see why that isn't a good comparison, right?
If you watched the Yankees you would understand that since Tex took over for Giambi (and a host of other also rans) the Yankees defense has hit historical highs (for the team) in both errorless games and team defense. 

You are proposing that a guy that touches the ball 1300 times per season at a clip of .997 is less important defensively than a guy who touches the ball less than 500 times per season at a clip of .955.

But I am sure that this falls into the same logic that Ichiro and his 250 hits are less important than a guy who hits 4th and gets 150 hits but drives him in right?

"You are proposing that a guy that touches the ball 1300 times per season at a clip of .997 is less important defensively than a guy who touches the ball less than 500 times per season at a clip of .955."

Yes.  Being a great defensive third baseman is much more difficult than being a great defensive first baseman.
5/25/2012 2:08 PM
MikeT23
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I'm not going to agree with anybody but here's my take on Texiera.

1.  Yankee fans saw Giambi brutalize 1B.   Texiera is a very good 1B but we might be thinking he's more than he is because of Giambi's DH glove.
2.  Texiera, to me, seems to be Keith Hernandez with considerably more power.
3.  Texiera probably shouldn't be mentioned with Schmidt.  You can't win that discussion.
4.  Anyone who doesn't believe a good 1B makes the rest of the IF better probably doesn't really watch baseball. 
5,  Texiera is not getting better by any metric, advanced or basic.
5.  Finally, Texiera will probably never get 20% of a HOF vote. 
5/25/2012 2:13 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by Bilfert on 5/25/2012 1:58:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 5/25/2012 12:06:00 PM (view original):
Schmidt was a great defensive third baseman.  Teixeira is a first baseman.

You see why that isn't a good comparison, right?
If you watched the Yankees you would understand that since Tex took over for Giambi (and a host of other also rans) the Yankees defense has hit historical highs (for the team) in both errorless games and team defense. 

You are proposing that a guy that touches the ball 1300 times per season at a clip of .997 is less important defensively than a guy who touches the ball less than 500 times per season at a clip of .955.

But I am sure that this falls into the same logic that Ichiro and his 250 hits are less important than a guy who hits 4th and gets 150 hits but drives him in right?

Bad argument.

How many of those 1300 touches of the ball at first base are just standing there and catching the ball thrown directly to you?
5/25/2012 2:13 PM
Bilfert
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Which is why catchers defense is not important.
5/25/2012 2:14 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by Bilfert on 5/25/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Which is why catchers defense is not important.
Catching throws from SS while standing =/= catching pitches while squating.

You know this. Don't argue in bad faith.
5/25/2012 2:18 PM
tecwrg
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The value of a good defensive player is not determined by how they handle the easy plays, it's in how they handle the difficult plays.

For the 1300 touches that a first baseman makes during a season, the 45 year old peanut vendor in the stands can convert 50-60% of those plays (probably a conservative number) just as well as a GG ML first baseman.

5/25/2012 2:32 PM
MikeT23
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The 45 y/o peanut vender can probably catch the pitches that are directly over the plate assuming he's not bat blind(for jrdx, because it doesn't show up on a stat sheet: Bat blind means the catcher blinks when the batter swings.  It's a natural reaction for most people).   He probably catches flyballs hit right to him and can make every throw from 2B on routine grounders. 

A good 1B saves runs.   

5/25/2012 2:42 PM
jrd_x
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Doesn't a good defender at any position save runs?

(I was bat blind in pony league, never played catcher again)
5/25/2012 3:00 PM
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