Two alternative draft order systems in progs Topic

Better on my bench than in your lineup...
8/10/2012 4:15 PM
I am not sure it is worse, crazy and ryno, but I think it is a problem in some leagues. It may not be intentional and I don't think it does require people to trade those extra regulars with the hoarder - often people "upgrade" meaning instead of drafting a player they need at a position that is not covered, they draft the best player at any position available, thus having an all-star SS or 3B or C and a HOF one. They don't want to give up a very good player for too little - as they perceive it - and so there are fewer regulars floating around the league at that position. Multiply this strategy by several owners and you find that good players are harder to find. 

But I also think that hoarding draft picks is problematic - some owners with a lot of experience are able to stockpile draft picks and that makes it a less competitive league as well. 

There are two ways to deal with all these issues - tanking, hoarding, gaming the system: both take many forms - one is to create the institutional arrangement that will create a disincentive to act in these ways. This is effective up to a point - but it takes as its point of departure the assumption that people are always in every case rational individualists who maximize value to themselves in a narrow sense without taking other values or concerns into account. 

The other is approach owners as members of something larger, a league, a network of relationships, a participant in a community, someone who values the integrity of the activity itself - their work, the citizenship, their art or science, or in this case the game they love, and as a member of something, a league or even a larger WIS-playing community. 

So in this case you approach people's enlightened self-interest. If you stockpile players or draft picks, use every trick in the book to your benefit, tor abuse people in sitemails or forums, take advantage of those with less experience, you start to have trouble getting people to trade with you, sign up for your league, and so on. If you abandon bad teams after you have had winning seasons in a prog league, you start to get a rep. If you engage in accusations, acrimony, start arguments frequently in a league, you hurt the integrity and risk the existence of the league. Then you can't play. So these activities, which from a private-individual, market gain-maximizing point of view are logical activities to gain profit, are in fact counter-productive beyond the immediate moment.

Over time, since it is not unconnected anonymous actors who are not the same day to day but mere personifications of market relations, as if what I did yesterday has no bearing on what I do and what happens today as in the abstract models economists make their living thinking up, who play here, but actual people who wil then encounter each other again in a few days or weeks, relationships, and leagues, not individuals are the prime unit of analysis that is relevant. That needs to be explained to people, but if they grasp it, they understand why it is not in their interest  to take short-term advantage to the fullest extent of a temporary privileged or advantageous position. Instead, in rational individualism theory, and in game theory, or in economics as usually approached, these behaviors are encouraged, or taken for granted as "human nature."
8/10/2012 4:52 PM
italyprof, it seems to me you're grouping actual unsportsmanlike behavior (tanking, ditching bad teams, abusing people in forums) with stuff I can't see as being negative at all (like drafting too many PA/IP -- and I'm not even being defensive about that, since it's something I almost never do, as I wind up having to use AAA even on my best prog teams). 

And I'm not sure what you mean by stockpiling draft picks.  Do you mean trading away players to teams in exchange for draft picks?  If that's the case, how is that possibly a bad thing?
8/10/2012 6:36 PM
Maybe I should clarify - while hoarding isn't as bad for the league as blatant tanking, but it is more annoying to me.  I'd rather a team be 20-140 intentionally then 20-140 because 3 teams have 8000PA and 2500IP - 

Crazy- you are correct that this doesn't happen too often, and can only happen in specific leagues.  It is those specific leagues that I refer.  Again its more a personal irritation than a real problem
8/10/2012 6:38 PM
Well, I think I know the owner you guys are referring to with regards to "hoarding," and he's probably my least favorite prog owner and has done several of the things on italyprof's list (abandoned bad teams, abusive in message forums and sitemails, taken advantage of inexperienced owners in trades).  But I just don't see hoarding or stockpiling draft picks (if I understand that term correctly) as being in any way shady -- even if it's this particular owner doing it, ha ha.
8/10/2012 6:41 PM
I've managed to get picks 1 and 6 in the same draft before, is this bad?
8/10/2012 7:26 PM
No, there is the very occasional owner who with a lot of experience and knowledge of the value of each draft year is well positioned to trade even very good players for draft picks, stockpiling as many as 4 first round picks in each of a couple year drafts, that sort of thing.

I agree it is not in the same category as the other behaviors, since of necessity good players are circulating around the league for those picks, so there is plus side. 

But my view is that the natural order is that owners of bad teams trade good players now for draft picks or for players that will be good down the road, as part of the rebuilding process. Owners of contending teams are willing to trade even very good draft picks for players that will help them win for 2-3 years (say Koufax in 1964, or Hal Trotsky in 1936 etc.). 

But when owners of good, contending teams are able to use the previous stockpiling of good players to pry draft picks from often less experienced players - who may not be aware that Year B has a better draft than Year A and so on, focusing on draft picks as what they want for each trade, things get out of whack. Rebuilding is harder to make happen and the league gets less competitive. 

I agree it is not the main problem, but it is one sometimes. 
8/10/2012 10:27 PM
It sounds like what you're talking about is lopsided players-for-picks trades, and yeah, it happens.  The main reason I started the Prog Draft Database forum is I thought it would be useful to take a quick glance at a few draft results for a season you were considering acquiring/trading your picks.  If you're playing in 1966 and considering trading your first rounder in 1967 or 1968, and you figure that pick will be #10-12 overall, then sure, you want to see what calibre of player went #10-12 in those seasons. 
8/10/2012 11:19 PM
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Two alternative draft order systems in progs Topic

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