Posted by zorzii on 6/25/2015 8:00:00 AM (view original):
Anavrin is dominant. Worldofnoah is dominant. Ggallagh is dominant. Dgravs is dominant. There are a lot of solid DIII coaches. Just check around. Mfnmyers is dominant. I am probably forgetting a lot of names, You need to come up with a top 10. And a voting of 20 or so coaches. Aejones. I forgot about him. Not sure if he is better in DII.

I'm mostly commenting because I lead this thread and nobody commented on it since this morning and I don't want it to die yet.   

But some of these coaches mentioned I never heard of which probably because we arent in the same world (even though ive been in at least half the worlds at one point or another) and they dont post in the forums.  But also, without calling out any specific coaches, you have to differenciate between dominant coaches and coaches who have the most titles.  Coaches who play in every world and run gimicky systems that make them amazing 2 out of 4 seasons and barely a NT team at best the other 2 should not be considered dominant coaches, in my opinion.

I think we all know who you're talking about here, Dan. ;). And yeah no offense to that person...he's a very good coach.

Posted by pepwaves on 6/25/2015 8:53:00 PM (view original):
I think we all know who you're talking about here, Dan. ;). And yeah no offense to that person...he's a very good coach.

He is a good coach. And he knows what he needs to do to win, and he's won many more championships than me.  But when talking about dominant coaches, I lean towards coaches who have teams every season that need to be upset if there teams lose before the elite 8, and there are a handful of them.

Posted by the0nlyis on 6/25/2015 7:49:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dan2044 on 6/25/2015 7:43:00 AM (view original):
For DIII coaches I'd nominate based on the only world I play DIII (Crum) the 2 most dominant coaches- jsajsa and Tarvolon

i think it will be really interesting to see how the votes go and the opinions on the two, the only other coach with as dominant as a recent stretch in D3 is pepwaves.  Another thing tarv and pep too. has is that he seems like one of the few and one of the best overall hd players, he doesnt have a lot of big six D1 exp, but he dominates d3, great track record d2, and some amazing midmajor d1 schools.  Idk about jsajsa as ive never seen him above d3, but it would be interesting to see how he would do at the higher divisions.

As I've discussed with many people privately, I have zero interest in DI, but if you want to talk about just one specific level then sure I belong with anyone.

And if I may piggyback on Dan and Pep, to which this comment does not apply to DI, if you are not competing every single season you have no place in this discussion. Top coaches don't miss the tourney, and should almost never have an underdog first round matchup. Period. I can make a wavier for Naismith UAA teams who miss it by not being .500 since those teams are often better then a 3rd of the teams that do make the field, but being great means you are a factor every season. Yes, I know which coach you guys are referring to and while he is definitely good, throwing away two out of every four seasons just doesn't earn my respect like the guys who bring it every season. I highly value consistency.

If I could get 1/2 elite coaches at 1/2/3 to look at my list before I post it that would be awesome.

I could just post the names I have right now I guess and let people debate, but then I feel the follow up poll wont be as active as people will have already discussed here and I cant set up the poll now as if there people I need to add/remove then I can't once I set it up and votes come in.

On the topic of the coaches I chose especially D3, they really needed to be getting to the E8 or better every season to even be considered as personally and I think nearly every coach would agree that jsajsa, tarvolon, pepwaves, and dgravs are in a class of their own. Their teams are NC contenders every season and rarely go a few seasons without a NC or at least multiple NC appearnces.  Besides them very few coaches can say they are that competitive, sure their a few coaches who have really good streaks every once in awhile where they win a NC or 2 and then are getting 2nd rounds/S16's E8's a lot, but those 4 are winning NC and getting the F4's basically every season.

Another problem is coaches who are only in a few worlds, as only coaches in that world may recognize them, and/or are relatively new and have a short history where maybe haven't won the # of NC as the previous four as they've not been around long enough for them to fully showcase.  I think coaches that fall into this are coaches already mentioned like worldofnoah.  He has been very dominate in his 1 D3 world Knight where he has been at his school for 10 seasons with 3 NC(2 back to back) 1 final four, 1 elite 8, 2 S16, 2nd rounds, and 1 first round, only missing the NT his first season.  Then you also have coaches again mentioned already like anavrin who doesn't really stay put, but has 2 NC in just 14 seasons being one of the best fb/press coaches.  On the topic of fastbreak/press coaches what about mfnmyers, some may discount him for his unusual strategy but it clearly works and he most likely wouldn't get voted, but would say earn top 10 or better votes with double digit titles and clearly tough teams almost year in.

I guess I just start throwng out names, before the polls and won't hold back:

Coaches like jdno who don't have the titles at D3 level, but if not for being stuck in the worlds of the "fantastic four" would have multiple NC as his teams like Emory which has a stretch of NC loss -> NC loss -> F4 -> NC loss and for seasons 71-79 never did worse than an Elite 8 and the 3 mentioned NC losses. or his Montclair state team which has 4 straight season within the last year/ 1.5 years of the top RPI yet didn't win a NT in the span.  Clearly again wouldn't top the fantastic four, but would receive votes and mine for 5th best D3 coach(as well as garnering a lot of votes for best overall coach as he is also very dominant at D1)

Carlbuzz, isn't as dominate in every world he is in(he's just below as he struggles a bit in the Naismith University but in other worlds like Allen his Lasell team is extremely top notch rivaling the stretches of jsajsa, tarv, pep, and dgravs within season 70-76 went to the final four every year, winning 3 titles, 2 NC losses, and 2 final four exits.

Some others probably similar to just being a tier below those four, but worthy of votes are dtm1500, ggallah(both elite D2 coaches), psmith17, 

And then maybe some fringe top 10-15 coaches in dukenilnil, aghander.

What about some coaches who aren't putting as much effort into the game anymore?  aejones still is pretty dominant, but not at his peak anymore.

You also have coaches very new or at least new accounts that haven't won a NT but close already like ginniebgood with back to back NC losses to dgravs in rupp.  as well as another NC loss and 3 straight S16's in IBA and has only been playing for 13 seasons.     

Thats only some topics of discussion for D3.

My new plan is to do a thread dedicated to discussing for each division concluding with a vote.  So I guess this will end up becoming the D3 discussion thread and once the discussion seems to slow down or reach a conclusion I can put up the poll for the top D3 coach and maybe do a top 5 or top 10.

Carlbuzz is really good in DII. Yet, in University, he is stuck with Jsajsa, Pep and ggallah and it's been tougher for him. I think DII and DI is really different than DIII. In DII, you need some sort of balance to win it, you can win it with any off-def set up. In DIII, owners winning in zones team are really good coaches cause fastbreak-press is OP. In Heartland, Knight, Matt won it more than once and he is zone. He is always in the NT. That is a solid coach. In University, Pepwaves, ggallah and Jsajsa are all motion, the first two are man to man and Jsajsa is press. What I find particularly incredible is that Pepwaves recruits everywhere. He still dominates. If you check his recruits, I have no idea how he does it and I am pretty sure he does not use FSS a lot.

As for dgravs, he is motion, press too. He has good talent in his division but nowhere near University in Naismith. To me, University is the all-stars of the conférences. I like Naismith because of this, it's a challenge to be as good as these guys are in our little division, named North Atlantic division. We are having a blast cause we are challenged. The weakness of the teams in our division is that a lot of us play zone.

When I mentioned Anavrin, he is the odd coach. He pops up in worlds and wins it at MENLO. I never seen it win it in another place than Menlo. I think he won in two worlds or three, then he left. He showed up in Knight but did not get to win, which means it's probably tougher to implement is strategy which is SPEED, SPEED, SPEED, in guards. And a fastbreak-press combo.

To sum it up, dgravs would be my top coach and you probably have the two next best coaches in University Naismith, followed by Worldofnoah, then you go back to ggallah. That'd be my top 5.

I think once you get the top 12 in DIII, the guys battle it out in one conference and in the NT for the next five to ten seasons!!!

Posted by pepwaves on 6/25/2015 8:53:00 PM (view original):
I think we all know who you're talking about here, Dan. ;). And yeah no offense to that person...he's a very good coach.

I disagree on both fronts, there are probably at least one (at a minimum) in both the DII & DIII divisions of each world, and they aren't good coaches.

Posted by zorzii on 6/26/2015 8:42:00 AM (view original):
Carlbuzz is really good in DII. Yet, in University, he is stuck with Jsajsa, Pep and ggallah and it's been tougher for him. I think DII and DI is really different than DIII. In DII, you need some sort of balance to win it, you can win it with any off-def set up. In DIII, owners winning in zones team are really good coaches cause fastbreak-press is OP. In Heartland, Knight, Matt won it more than once and he is zone. He is always in the NT. That is a solid coach. In University, Pepwaves, ggallah and Jsajsa are all motion, the first two are man to man and Jsajsa is press. What I find particularly incredible is that Pepwaves recruits everywhere. He still dominates. If you check his recruits, I have no idea how he does it and I am pretty sure he does not use FSS a lot.

As for dgravs, he is motion, press too. He has good talent in his division but nowhere near University in Naismith. To me, University is the all-stars of the conférences. I like Naismith because of this, it's a challenge to be as good as these guys are in our little division, named North Atlantic division. We are having a blast cause we are challenged. The weakness of the teams in our division is that a lot of us play zone.

When I mentioned Anavrin, he is the odd coach. He pops up in worlds and wins it at MENLO. I never seen it win it in another place than Menlo. I think he won in two worlds or three, then he left. He showed up in Knight but did not get to win, which means it's probably tougher to implement is strategy which is SPEED, SPEED, SPEED, in guards. And a fastbreak-press combo.

To sum it up, dgravs would be my top coach and you probably have the two next best coaches in University Naismith, followed by Worldofnoah, then you go back to ggallah. That'd be my top 5.

I think once you get the top 12 in DIII, the guys battle it out in one conference and in the NT for the next five to ten seasons!!!

I'd say Carlbuzz is an even better D3 coach than D2.  He also only has 1 D2 team and his Lasell team rivals some of the best stretches of any coach, but doesn't dominate every world he is in like jsa,pep, and tarv

I'm not discounting mattster one bit, but we are on the topic of the best of the best, I think his Mancheser teams are year in and out some of the better teams, but his last NC was 11 seasons ago and before that there was another 11 season gap between NT.  Granted the past 5 seasons of E8->E8->E8->S16->F4 is super impressive, but were comparing it to stretches of Champ->NC loss->Champ->E8->Champ.  Clearly mattster is super dominant, but he is not winning championships every other season.

Anavrin won the NC at Louisiana in Knight season 78 his second at the school. left and then came back to Menlo and in his second year there was the runner up.

For your top 5 where is tarvolon?  He is behind worldofnoah and ggallagh?  ggallagh hasn't won a D3 title since season 69 of Wooden.  tarvolon has more titles at a single school than ggallagh has overall.  ggallagh is one of the better D2/D3 coaches and has some top teams right now poised to win titles, but tarvolon on just titles alone is better than ggallagh.

For worldofnoah I'll say he benefit greatly from 2 things, he runs a 5-5-2 structure and is in a conference that only offers under 5 challenging games a season and really only 2/3 where he might not be the favorite.  If you discredit Carlbuzz for his Naismith struggles, you overestimate worldofnoah for not being in a "super conf" as those heavy underclassmen years where he gets those 2nd round, S16s and Elite 8's he might not even make the tourney were he in a "tougher" conference(the conf is a very good rpi conf, and usually top 3 but thats because they have 3 super elite teams, picking up the slack for the remaining great teams and then a good number of sims.

Currently I would vote jsajsa, tarvolon, dgravs, pepwaves, and then probably either carlbuzz or mfnmyers.

I think this is another topic, but the 1x worlds are tougher overall for D3.  Maybe their just more of the best coahes there compared to the 2x being more balanced/equal, but I do believe those coaches in the 1x worlds and those D3 super conferences are tougher than anything the 2x can throw at em.

  It also looks like this is really not  "huge" discussion so I'll post the poll tomorrow morning if I have time otherwise tomorrow night.

Great discussion here and good points by all of you.  Thanks for getting this going, the0nlyis.  It's fun to talk about the best of the best and I'm flattered to be included in that group!  My HD interest has been waning a bit lately, but this thread has motivated me to get back on my game.  So thanks! :) 

Some thoughts:

- I think the points jsa and dan make above are really important.  For all the reasons they mention, I don't think mfnmyers should be placed above coaches like jdno, carlbuzz, or ggallagh.  Myers has the double digit championships but he's done that in over 200 seasons with a ton of mediocre seasons in between.  Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach, but if he were in Naismith's University conference...I think he'd drop near the bottom of the pack. 

- If you are extending this discussion to include coaches who have historically had a ton of success, I think you gotta include xulapaul.  He had some very impressive championship runs in Wooden and has been successful for a very long time.  He's struggled in University though and has only reached the Elite 8 once in Naismith.  So that certainly hurts his case a bit. 

- aejones definitely belongs in this discussion, but I agree with what someone said about him (maybe zorzii?)...he already peaked and is sort of coasting right now.  He gets the occasional championship in the weaker worlds, but in the more competitive worlds he's become more of a 2nd round/Sweet 16 coach.  

- jdno has put together some of the best teams ever to not win a championship.  Seems like he is routinely getting upset with some amazing teams.  Though as someone mentioned, he has had some great playoff runs in Naismith.  Not winning a championship also hurts his case, but he belongs in this discussion for sure.

- ggallagh is primarily a D3 coach and only just recently got into D2. He's dominated in Wooden D3 and almost always has one of the top 5 teams in Naismith D3.  Definitely an elite coach who is in my top 5 probably.  

Just realized I probably should save these thoughts for the actual poll.  I'll stop here! ;) 

Off the top of my head, coaches you have to beat every season to advance: D3 jsajsa. D2 alblack.

Quick question, would it be better to put the poll in here, or create a seperate thread specifically for the poll?  I'm worried if I put it here it wont get as many views except for the few who are reading/replying to this thread already.

Maybe do:

thread of prediscussion of who deserves to be on the poll
thread including poll where people can discuss results or who they voted for and why.

Yeah...I think a new thread would be best.

With ten worlds and a lot of coaches who only play in one or two, I think a lot of deserving names would end up being left out.  I mostly only play D2 at this point and have run across almost all the D2 coaches who have been mentioned so far, but there are still several that need to be named to have a complete list.  The only problem I see is that it may just end up turning into a popularity contest.

I could name probably a half a dozen D2 coaches off the top if my head who I love to play in the NT due to the challenge, but I hate to see in my bracket due to the fact that they'll probably end up ending my NT run (if that makes sense).  I prefer not to name names right now because I'll just end up forgetting someone and I don't want to disrespect any deserving coaches.