Posted by Sportsbulls on 4/1/2020 2:07:00 AM (view original):
I just saw that people were talking about how RS2 is impossible to recruit in and thats a notion I hear a lot and I disagree with.

The Issue is for DI coaches (especially new ones). The differences in how RS2 works in DI vs DII/DIIII are enormous.

You cant even sign DI players in the first session if you are DII/DIII.

“Also, I think the DI vs. DII multiplier is fine as is. I think many people (including myself a lot of the time) tend to fall into a trap of competing for recruits. It's a product of playing against so many other humans where we need to 'stake' our territory and do everything we can to hold it... even if it's not the smart move. We commit and go all-in on our primary guys, wait to see how they play out, and then 100% commit to our secondary guys and so on. If a DII coach has been on the phone since the minute the first cycle began offering this kid the keys to the campus and one night with the assistant coach's mother, I'd like to believe they deserve a fair shot at him. If the coach at Duke was to send a quick "LMK if u wanna play at Duke" text, I'd like to believe they deserve a shot as well. That doesn't mean DII team shouldn't be considered, Duke should've done more early (rather than probably go for several 4 and 5 stars before eventually settling on their last resort).”

I agree. When people have issues with losing recruits to lower division schools, they are results based almost entirely gameplay choices (the exception being new coach and job change scenarios, like OP, where I mostly agree with you as well). If having backup options available is important, you should make that part of your strategy from the start.

I know this is a tangent off the original post, but what is your strategy for backups? It's easy for people to throw out the idea but I've had less success actually implementing it. I'm usually successful at targeting backups that humans overlook, and I'll pump some AP in. But you can't do too much or you get behind in your primary battles. Then sims come in after getting pushed off their main targets and screw up my backup options. I assume this is more of an issue with low prestige D1. It's probably easier to save some resources when you are A prestige and have the chance to scare off some battles just because of your prestige, and it probably doesn't take much to push sims off your backups, but low prestige is a struggle in this regard.

Posted by upsetcity on 4/1/2020 8:20:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 3/31/2020 6:07:00 PM (view original):
D- DI vs A+ DII should be a larger difference than A+ DII and D DIII. Like damn if I had a chance to play DI ball...

6.8.0

I don't mean to get off-topic but:
My former teammate was recruited to play at Oak Hill Academy (he was on my HS team Fr. through Jr. years; transferred to Oak Hill his senior year). He was recruited to play at quite a few DI schools, including some P5 schools and I remember the A10 as a whole had been showing him quite a bit of love. At the end of the day, he decided on playing for the DII National Champions and sat the bench his first two years. If an A+ DII team is a really good fit (closer to home near a beach, coach helps players mature into men, the players have really good vibes, the facilities are crazy nice, the arena fills up a bit and gets loud, better academically, etc.), it's easy to understand why you would choose them over a D- DI team (with a few fans in the arena, people joke about how you guys are 0-15, etc.) despite the benefit of saying "yeah, I'm DI".

Small rant now: I understand what you're saying isn't "DII shouldn't have a chance" and I understand even the example above is just one silly example. It does frustrate me when I read in CCs and in the forums how recruits "wouldn't go to X school over Y school". It happens quite frequently. It might be a stretch (or maybe something I'm entirely alone on here) but I'd even be in favor of having a smaller division multiplier but making "Wants to Play at Projected Division" a preference with Very Good or Very Bad. It's not every recruits dream to play DI and eventually make the NBA, some just want to go to school on a discount by playing some ball.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'it happens quite frequently' but if you mean a player choosing a D2 school over a D1 school then I disagree.

In real life - if you look at the top 300 players in any given class, they are all going to D1 schools. Maybe you could find one or two of the years but it's VERY rare. Meanwhile in HD, the D2 level is filled with top 300 players (usually in the 100-300 range but there are a few top 100s out there). If you're straight up comparing the results in real life to results in HD, it's not even close.

The biggest reason for this is that D1 is only 1/3 full with humans and sim recruiting isn't very good. You can beat a D1 sim at D3 relatively easily.

I just took over Michigan in Smith and I have 7 scholarships to fill. I've looked for about 3 or 4 good D1 players who are not offered a scholarship and I'm hoping to get a couple of those. After that I'm looking at some D2 JUCO players to be fillers for a couple seasons until I'm able to use them to recruit. That way I'm not stuck with horrible players for 4 seasons and I'm not taking walk-ons for next season. It's not ideal but it's the best I can do with the hand I was dealt.

So I just took a new D1 job and have 140 APs to play with. Is putting 35 APs on four recruits spreading myself too thin if the guys I'm targeting are already moderate with D2/D3 teams? Should I go 70/70 on two recruits instead?

Posted by Baums_away on 4/2/2020 10:56:00 PM (view original):
So I just took a new D1 job and have 140 APs to play with. Is putting 35 APs on four recruits spreading myself too thin if the guys I'm targeting are already moderate with D2/D3 teams? Should I go 70/70 on two recruits instead?

I'd go 70/70.

In recruiting session 2 at D1, it's all about finding players you actually want to have for four years, and unlocking those precious few players as fast as possible so you can offer scholarships.

If a player has a D2 at "moderate" plus a scholarship offer, and player has an early / EOP1 signing preference, walk away. He'll sign with the D2 first chance he gets.

Posted by Basketts on 4/1/2020 11:56:00 AM (view original):
I know this is a tangent off the original post, but what is your strategy for backups? It's easy for people to throw out the idea but I've had less success actually implementing it. I'm usually successful at targeting backups that humans overlook, and I'll pump some AP in. But you can't do too much or you get behind in your primary battles. Then sims come in after getting pushed off their main targets and screw up my backup options. I assume this is more of an issue with low prestige D1. It's probably easier to save some resources when you are A prestige and have the chance to scare off some battles just because of your prestige, and it probably doesn't take much to push sims off your backups, but low prestige is a struggle in this regard.

It’s certainly true that you can get higher quality backups locked in easier at A than at D+. At all levels, the question is centered on how you are classifying your players. A backup option at Kansas is likely a primary target for me at Jackson State. The backup at JSU is maybe a primary guy at D2 Augustana. I think a lot of guys get into a mode of thinking where they pick out targets and then just order them. Like they’re looking at PGs and say ok, this is my first choice, this is my second choice, and so on, and then make the first choice a prime target and the 3rd or 4th best guys they’ve targeted are backups. If that’s how you’re doing it, of course you’re going to run into problems. To effectively secure backup options, they have to really be a different caliber of player. There are lots of ways to make those distinctions, but for me, it comes down to how many years of development he needs. I’m looking for guys who can do 3 things well, or 2 things really well, or one thing at an elite level. My prime targets will generally be guys who will give me 2+ seasons of that, basically can be featured by end of freshman season; backups are guys that may take 2-3 years of development before they get to that level, so I’ll need to minimize their exposure until then. Of course you don’t want a team full of projects, that’s why they’re backups. So I use the color code to denote very distinct classes of players.

Say I need a PG, and scouted 60 of them to level 4. There are probably at least a dozen (sometimes more) guys in between the group of guys I’d be willing to spend significant resources on, and my backup options. Perhaps 150 (sometimes more) OVR points. I may identify, by color code, a primary target, 1-2 secondary targets, and a backup option or 2. Primary and secondary targets could all see significant investment from me, but the primary target is the only one I’ll spend significant *initial* AP on; then depending on what the battles look like, I may move that to a secondary target(s) and drop the primary after a cycle or 3; or I may drop the secondary targets. I keep an AP or two on a backup for quite a while. Depending on how the early battle looks, if it looks certain I’ll have to battle for a prime or secondary target, and it’s a pressing need, I’ll take a cycle or two early on and invest enough to offer a scholarship to the backup (this is why I will tend to choose late signees for backup options, if possible). By the end of the second day of recruiting, I generally have AP distribution down to 1-2 for a backup (if I’ve decided a backup is important for my team at this position) and anywhere from 25-50 on a primary (depending on how many open scholarships, and how many “primary” targets I’m going after).

If you’re going to use this strategy, or something similar, you kind of have to break yourself of the mindset that you “can’t do too much or you get behind in your primary battles”. The idea here is that backup options are guys you will be able to recruit, if you have to, for minimal investment (maybe save enough cash for a HV or 3 to knock off a D3, lol). 3-5 AP per cycle may seem significant if you’re locked into maximizing your odds for your top choice; but as with most things in this game, maximizing your odds in one area means swallowing a bunch of diminished returns. 3-5 points per cycle barely moves the needle at all for a guy you’re going to end up doing 20 HVs for. But it has enormous impact for players who will get no home visits from any D1 coaches, especially if you do enough early to keep sims from investing.

That makes a lot of sense. I think my mistake is I don't do enough early so they are easily poached by sims. I know its easier to knock them down on primary targets where resources aren't as big of an issue, but less so when you are trying to unlock a backup cheap.

Posted by Basketts on 4/3/2020 12:42:00 PM (view original):
That makes a lot of sense. I think my mistake is I don't do enough early so they are easily poached by sims. I know its easier to knock them down on primary targets where resources aren't as big of an issue, but less so when you are trying to unlock a backup cheap.

You can also use the signing preferences here to your advantage. If your primary targets are early or EOP1, you can sometimes get away with lurking, if there’s a lower division team to knock the sims down for you. Then you can wait until your early targets decide. Of course, if you’re low D1, you may not have the juice to get into signing range against an invested D2, unless you’ve saved some cash for visits.

To the original post, yes. To me d2 should be able to sign d1 guys the cycle before d3 teams can. We're missing an aspect of this as well. Not only does it hurt new d1 coaches, but it ruins d2. On occasion some guys will slip to d3 who shouldn't but a lot of times the top 10 - 15 teams in d3 are similar in skill just built differently due to system, but coaching plays a major part. D2 is just a crap shoot. Go after guys you should never get and hope your lucky enough to get them. I have one d2 team and I'm trying not to move up to d1 because I want to like d2, I really do, but it's painful to play. And to all the d2 and d3 only coaches out there, come try d1. I know you hear about coin flips and ees but if you want to play against the best coaches and become better as a coach yourself and really learn how to manage a team and game plan, d1 is the place to be. Anyway, stepping off of soapbox... To the backup recruit question, I find that a lot of time my backups are chosen for me. After about 3 cycles I'll look around and see who I should be able to get cheap that can play for me. They may have a sim on them or a lower prestige or division school that I feel won't battle me. Like shoe said, if I'm rebuilding a school I may have to target players d2 schools are on, where at my a+ schools I can scare off most c prestiges and below because they know it's not worth their resources in most cases to battle me. Rather they wait and see if I dont end up needing the player and maybe can scoop them up cheap if I don't have room for them.

Posted by piman314 on 4/3/2020 9:43:00 PM (view original):
To the original post, yes. To me d2 should be able to sign d1 guys the cycle before d3 teams can. We're missing an aspect of this as well. Not only does it hurt new d1 coaches, but it ruins d2. On occasion some guys will slip to d3 who shouldn't but a lot of times the top 10 - 15 teams in d3 are similar in skill just built differently due to system, but coaching plays a major part. D2 is just a crap shoot. Go after guys you should never get and hope your lucky enough to get them. I have one d2 team and I'm trying not to move up to d1 because I want to like d2, I really do, but it's painful to play. And to all the d2 and d3 only coaches out there, come try d1. I know you hear about coin flips and ees but if you want to play against the best coaches and become better as a coach yourself and really learn how to manage a team and game plan, d1 is the place to be. Anyway, stepping off of soapbox... To the backup recruit question, I find that a lot of time my backups are chosen for me. After about 3 cycles I'll look around and see who I should be able to get cheap that can play for me. They may have a sim on them or a lower prestige or division school that I feel won't battle me. Like shoe said, if I'm rebuilding a school I may have to target players d2 schools are on, where at my a+ schools I can scare off most c prestiges and below because they know it's not worth their resources in most cases to battle me. Rather they wait and see if I dont end up needing the player and maybe can scoop them up cheap if I don't have room for them.

Me again... Mr D2!.... I agree 1000% percent about game planning being big at D1. But the best coaches do NOT only play D1! That's ludicrous! I don't think coaches like myself, qb4usf, arfy, carlbuzz, and a few more great examples of lower level coaches, end up seeing each other in the E8 season after season just by chance. It's because we're elite coaches as well!

If you feel D2 is just a crap shoot and go after guys you may or may not get, what do you think D3 is?! It's the same thing only worse! You just wait longer to see if you get those same players.

D1 has its manner of "managing a team". D2 does as well. D3 does too. It's just 3 different styles. The only advantage I give whole heartedly to D1 coaches is game planning. And my explanation.... when YOU say manage a team, I'm going to assume (and I could be wrong so feel free to add in please) you mean choosing the amount of studs to target, planning for EEs, planning for backups in both situations, being able to adjust on the fly when any of those variables don't work out in your favor, etc.

Guess what I do at D2? All of that same stuff except the EE related stuff. I don't hope and wait and see if I get my guy. I prepare for backups, I target SOME early guys, I setup to have late signers on standby. The one thing that's different is that at D2, I can have a team that is so much better talent wise, that I demolish everyone until the E8. And when I get there, I face the same 8-16 guys I face every season. The same caliber of quality coaches I listed above. Sometimes, I may face YOU there even!

So I just don't understand your argument here (and we've had this argument amongst each other before, of course!). So please help me understand in detail why you feel that way about D1 having the best coaches. With examples. And then think about what I'm contributing to the discussion, and help me understand why it's incorrect. And I truly mean this in a humble manner! I'm listening and if I believe your arguments, I will concede, with ease! But i just can't grasp it.

(I'm also not saying if I went to D1, I'd dominate. I'm not saying that at all. What I AM saying, is that if I invested as much time in D1 as a do D2, I'd be at the same coaching echelon I'm in now. And same if I played D3. In a lame example..... if HD ranked coaches, and I'm the ranked the #10 D2 coach, if I took the same amount of time to learn D3, I'd be ranked between #7-13 there, and same in D1. Of course it's not completely equal. But my point is, if I played D1 for 3 years, the same I've played at D2, I'm not gonna fall off and be a terrible coach! I'm an HD coach. I'm a good HD coach. I'd figure it out all the same. It's what we all do)

Hey top! First, my comment was coaches who play only d2 or d3 and no d1 should try d1. Some would like it, some wouldn't, but everyone who played it for a while would become a better coach. Some of the names you mentioned, namely qb4usf and arfy do play d1 and have had a lot success there, so I'm not sure why you brought their names up. They are obviously both great coaches. I really don't want to get into who is a great coach and who isn't, that's just a rabbit hole where I say something stupid and make myself look like an idiot, which I do routinely anyway.
As far as d3 vs. D2, d3 is not nearly as much of a crap shoot. D2 coaches recruit legitimate d1 guys and get them before some coaches have a chance to unlock anything because of when they sign. The waiting to sign into the second period for d3 means that more guys can be found and less slip through the cracks. In general, d2 has many more guys who shouldn't be there than d3 does. You yourself said you wait longer at d3, which is why d3 works while d2 does not. Also, d2 can easily beat d1 sims, where that is possible but much harder to do at d3, meaning there are less options for them from the start.
As far as the planning a team idea, from experience I can tell you it is much, much easier at d2 and d3 than d1. Ees aside, at d2 and d3 you identify your studs. If you don't get them fine, there are still tons of other capable players. Not the case at d1. Backups are much harder to find there, and you rarely stumble upon capable players unrecruited late in the process. Walkons can be assets, which is rarely if ever the case in d2. It's hard to explain to someone whose never done it, but there is so much more going on and so many more decisions to make at d1 than d2 it's something you'd just have to try for yourself to find out. It's why when sportsbulls gave examples early about session 2 recruiting he was told we weren't talking d2. Because d2 and d1 are so different in that, and many other respects.
You made my next point for me also. You face the same 8 - 16 coaches in the sweet 16 each year. Probably true, but not the case at d1. The coaching pool is much deeper there, and it is much harder to make a sweet 16 there than in d2. And just to be clear that's fine, d2 is supposed to have inexperienced coaches who are getting better. But beating them or sims year after year to make the sweet 16 doesn't really prove much. And look, over half my titles are at d3, and I don't value them nearly as much as d1 titles for the same reason, which is why I believe so many coaches overrate me as a coach.
As far as your last point, (and this sounds harsher than I mean it after reading it) maybe you'd be a great d1 coach if you played it for a while, maybe you wouldn't be. I have no idea, but I'm sure you'd have a learning curve. But you like to call yourself a great coach, and again maybe you are, but to me you can't prove it in this game without some sort of d1 success. Which brings me back to my original point in my original post, if you only play d2 and d3 and never played d1, you should try d1. You'll learn and become a better coach (I'm still learning every season I play) and, for those who care about ranking coaches, you'll have a better measuring stick of where you truly stand.

Posted by piman314 on 4/4/2020 11:46:00 AM (view original):
Hey top! First, my comment was coaches who play only d2 or d3 and no d1 should try d1. Some would like it, some wouldn't, but everyone who played it for a while would become a better coach. Some of the names you mentioned, namely qb4usf and arfy do play d1 and have had a lot success there, so I'm not sure why you brought their names up. They are obviously both great coaches. I really don't want to get into who is a great coach and who isn't, that's just a rabbit hole where I say something stupid and make myself look like an idiot, which I do routinely anyway.
As far as d3 vs. D2, d3 is not nearly as much of a crap shoot. D2 coaches recruit legitimate d1 guys and get them before some coaches have a chance to unlock anything because of when they sign. The waiting to sign into the second period for d3 means that more guys can be found and less slip through the cracks. In general, d2 has many more guys who shouldn't be there than d3 does. You yourself said you wait longer at d3, which is why d3 works while d2 does not. Also, d2 can easily beat d1 sims, where that is possible but much harder to do at d3, meaning there are less options for them from the start.
As far as the planning a team idea, from experience I can tell you it is much, much easier at d2 and d3 than d1. Ees aside, at d2 and d3 you identify your studs. If you don't get them fine, there are still tons of other capable players. Not the case at d1. Backups are much harder to find there, and you rarely stumble upon capable players unrecruited late in the process. Walkons can be assets, which is rarely if ever the case in d2. It's hard to explain to someone whose never done it, but there is so much more going on and so many more decisions to make at d1 than d2 it's something you'd just have to try for yourself to find out. It's why when sportsbulls gave examples early about session 2 recruiting he was told we weren't talking d2. Because d2 and d1 are so different in that, and many other respects.
You made my next point for me also. You face the same 8 - 16 coaches in the sweet 16 each year. Probably true, but not the case at d1. The coaching pool is much deeper there, and it is much harder to make a sweet 16 there than in d2. And just to be clear that's fine, d2 is supposed to have inexperienced coaches who are getting better. But beating them or sims year after year to make the sweet 16 doesn't really prove much. And look, over half my titles are at d3, and I don't value them nearly as much as d1 titles for the same reason, which is why I believe so many coaches overrate me as a coach.
As far as your last point, (and this sounds harsher than I mean it after reading it) maybe you'd be a great d1 coach if you played it for a while, maybe you wouldn't be. I have no idea, but I'm sure you'd have a learning curve. But you like to call yourself a great coach, and again maybe you are, but to me you can't prove it in this game without some sort of d1 success. Which brings me back to my original point in my original post, if you only play d2 and d3 and never played d1, you should try d1. You'll learn and become a better coach (I'm still learning every season I play) and, for those who care about ranking coaches, you'll have a better measuring stick of where you truly stand.

Fair post! A few things to note, after I wrote mine last night, I thought a lil harder about things and I wanted to clarify some of it.

As far as my "#10 ranked D2 coach" comment, and then comparing it to being ranked somewhere roughly between #7-#13.... that's not accurate. I should've used the term percentile instead of rank. D1 has many more coaches. So it's not fair to say it in terms of rank. Maybe if I said I'd be in the 90 percentile of coaches, it would be a better statement. Also I said 3 years at each level. That's not true either. It takes a lot longer to be good at D1 than it does the lower levels. So my error on those.

The points you brought up about arfy and qb4usf I feel work in MY favor of the argument and not yours. You said they had good success at D1. But they are predominantly lower level coaches. So those guys prove my point.

I agree in your assessment of me facing the same 8-16 coaches in the E8 and beyond on a regular basis. But I wasn't meaning it's an accomplishment to make the E8 at D2 as far as "greatness". What I meant is, I win a lot of those games! Against the arfy's and the qb's. (These are just example names were using. Not that I beat those specific coaches, or not. Just that they are great D2/D3 coaches that you agreed are also great at D1).

So all in all, my opinion is that everything we've mentioned here doesn't prove anything at all unfortunately Haha! Except for ONE thing. And it's what I point out as much as possible.....

D1, D2, and D3 are 3 different games with different challenges. What that means to me is that you can't say "all the best coaches are at D1". Which is what you've said in the past. I can't say for certain that I'd be the best coach at D1 just cuz I am at D2 (not that I am! Just examples). Which is what I've said in the past.....

I'm also not offended one bit by saying that I may or may not be good at D1. That's a fair statement. In fact, I'll say i wouldn't be to be honest. I hate the game of dice rolls personally. Go all in on a 5* that's in my backyard, and wait to see if i win the flip, is not a fun game for me and not what I choose to play. But that's also why I gave the nod to D1 coaches being the best as far as having to manage that part of the game. But it's just a "different" part of the game. And not a better or worse part. For me, at least