NEW 1963 J4M formula Progressive - FULL Topic

......ahh the formula....man I miss it....I really do. It wasn't for everybody, but I was pretty good at juggling picks vs the formula....Am in tradrr's commished league.

How'd the minor league ball pan out....?
With you back someone call hagebono, cardinaldave and jeff4noles.....we had a ton of good owners
...and I'd be in, if the formula is back.
4/14/2020 8:15 PM
Posted by tradrrr on 4/14/2020 7:25:00 PM (view original):
We're in season 63 in 2003. Thunderkat is the only original owner remaining but we've got a couple other really long time owners. I didn't come in until the 1972 season. I've often wondered how these progs all came about as it seems I was late to the game.

This particular league has an 85 million cap. I'm in one other prog league and it's without a cap. I guess I'd prefer the cap because it forces tough decisions and keeps the teams closer, but I'd be open to both.

I also like the idea of making it as mirroring RL as much as possible. DH in AL only, Same divisions and format as RL. So if we started in 69 there'd be 2 leagues and 2 divisions and only 2 rounds of playoffs. We could change it up when RL changes and expand as well. Any thoughts/interest in this?
That's awesome that league is still going! It's not the one I was originally thinking, but I remember us starting a 1940 J4M league so that must be it!

The idea of a salary cap is intriguing, I like the concept behind encouraging teams to make tough choices. That's one of the things the J4M draft formula you've seen mentioned works as well. If you stash a bunch of unneeded talent on your roster, your draft position suffers. I can post a link to the formula if you're interested in checking it out! If my brother isn't able to do it, I am sure I could do it for him.

The TLDR is the formula "predicts" how many wins each team should get based on it's salary relative to the rest of the league, and then salary/record snapshots are taken at multiple points throughout the year (to prevent a massive salary dump at the end of the year) and draft order is based off who performed best according to their worth.

So a $60m team who was predicted to win 40 but won 50, would be rewarded over the $80m team That was predicted to win 70 and won 49. It keeps everyone active (even when a team may not be playoff bound) because literally, every game matters. But yeah, if you're interested I think we've gotten quite a bit of interest already (up to 10 right now)
4/14/2020 8:28 PM
Posted by cpdpoet on 4/14/2020 8:17:00 PM (view original):
......ahh the formula....man I miss it....I really do. It wasn't for everybody, but I was pretty good at juggling picks vs the formula....Am in tradrr's commished league.

How'd the minor league ball pan out....?
With you back someone call hagebono, cardinaldave and jeff4noles.....we had a ton of good owners
...and I'd be in, if the formula is back.
There were a ton of great owners. Maybe I'll send a sitemail out and see if anyone is still around.

I'd love to use the formula! Idk if j4m has the time right now but Ive it before too, so I could jump in if I needed for that part.

Minor league ball never happened like I hoped. Life took over, and I've got 3 kids now ha.
4/14/2020 8:32 PM
Formula sounds interesting. My only concern is would it influence trading? Meaning, if the season doesn’t go well, I like to trade talent for picks (not to tank but to build up for the next season). Would this discourage that? I guess we’ve been pretty lucky with owners not tanking, I’d think the cap would prevent the stashing of the players and a lottery of the bottom 4 picks would keep it at bay?

Btw, just ideas. I just want to know what I’m in for if I offer to commish the league. Since it’s your baby I’ll let you decide.
4/14/2020 10:09 PM
It doesn't discourage trading at all! Changing your salary will impact your draft position, which is what the snapshots are for (every 40 games I believe). So if you were to trade a higher salaried player, your team would reflect those changes at the next snapshot mark.
4/14/2020 11:27 PM
Since there has been some questions and some interest in the formula, I'll copy a post from my brother from a few years back that served as an explanation/FAQ of sorts. If anyone has any other feedback or questions feel free to ask.
4/15/2020 9:10 AM
[This is copied/edited from a discussion from a previous season in one of my other leagues]:

How the Formula Works in Practice:

More or less the score is a reflection of what % you are over/under achieving based on your expected wins. Your expected wins are based on your salary relative to the salaries of your competitors. All the team salaries are averaged over the course of the season -- a team with a salary equal to the league average salary is estimated or expected to win at a .500 W%.

The salaries are calculated to reflect the fact that a team with the lowest salary in the league will never play itself and will only play teams with higher salaries and vice versa (this is calculated to be exact for each team). Factoring all of that in, a team with a score of 20.00 overachieved by 20% and a team with a score of -20.00 underachieved by 20%.

A league average team would be expected to win 81 games. So, winning 81 games would give that team a score of 0.00 as they didn't over or under achieve their expectations. So, if you want to see what it might take to get a the top pick, a score of 30 would pretty much assure you a lock for the first pick... a 30 would mean over achieving by 30%. 30% over 81 would be 105 wins. A score of 30 would have equaled the #1 pick in 56 of the previous 79 seasons (and no worse than the #2 pick in the rest). Only 127 teams in the previous 79 seasons have reached a score of 20 or higher (an average of less than 2 per season), so 79 of 127 with a score of 20 got the 1st overall pick, but a score of 20 or higher has resulted in a top 5 pick in every season but one (in that one a score of 20 netted the 7th pick). In the example above 97 wins (a score of 20) would give an average team a 62% chance at the first pick and a 98% chance at a pick in the top 5.

Now, the top teams have a harder time getting top picks as they have to win more. This is the nature of percentages. A team expected to win 100 would need to win 120 for a score of 20 and 130 for a score of 30. Whereas, a team expected to win 50 would need only win 60 for a score of 20 and 65 for a score of 30.

[I will include a TrgtW column to the standings so that everyone can see what number of wins they should try to reach to achieve a score of 20.00 and 30.00, and thus essentially guarantee themselves a top 5 pick.]

How You Can Win More (With Less):

The two simple keys for getting a higher score are to win as many games as possible and to keep your salary as low as possible. I'll focus on the latter part of that strategy first.

Streamlining Your Team Salary:
The easiest way to do this is to not draft for depth. If you have a full time SS, you don't need to draft or trade for another full time SS or even a SS with 300 PA. All that will do is add salary to your team that will not help you win. If the part time SS is better than your full time SS, you're better off trading the full time SS for another part time SS and/or picks. You want to have as few PA and IP as you're comfortable competing with. Don't shortchange yourself though, there's no AAA, and tired players play horribly, so plan accordingly. And play smart. Also, remember, draft picks aren't the only (or even the fastest or best) way to add talent to or rebuild your team.

Winning As Many As You Can:
The whole point of the formula is to encourage every team to win all season long, essentially to stop the practice of tanking. That said, you can still play smart with your team to ensure more wins over the course of the season, especially if you are a weaker team, by managing your roster and your losses. Particularly if you are short on PA or IP, or only have a few quality PA or IP, this strategy is recommended. Play your stronger players together to ensure a better chance of winning those games and play them against key opponents (division rivals, interleague games, against stronger or weaker teams, etc...). If you have only one or two quality starters put your better hitters in for their starts and play your weaker hitters when the other starters are pitching (assuming a shortage of quality PA, as well). Likewise, manage the pitchers so that you maximize their chance of wins. If you have two quality starters and a bunch of sub 120 IP pitchers, don't try to maximize your IP by running a two man rotation with a bunch of low quality arms in the bullpen. Instead run a three, four, or five man rotation so that your two quality starters go deep into their starts and basically assure you of winning their starts and run the rest of the lower quality pitchers in as the rest of the rotation in tandems or as lower IP starters with the bullpen behind them this way you have a legit shot at winning at least 40-67% of your teams games as opposed to the possibility of your bullpen blowing every game and barely winning 25-30% of your teams games.

How The Formula Effects The League As A Whole:

This does two things for the league: First, it assures that parity is greater as everyone is trying to win as many games as possible all season long, and; second, more talent is dispersed as stronger teams trade away their excess to weaker teams to streamline ensuring a stronger competitive balance across the league as the weaker teams then have the PA & IP needed to compete
4/15/2020 9:11 AM
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Posted by rls1 on 4/15/2020 9:23:00 AM (view original):
I vote for 20 teams and starting in 63, fwiw.
I vote the same!
4/15/2020 9:46 AM
I would be interested. It's been a few years since I have played. Looking to get back into a couple leagues.
4/15/2020 10:41 AM
Posted by N4ser on 4/15/2020 10:41:00 AM (view original):
I would be interested. It's been a few years since I have played. Looking to get back into a couple leagues.
Welcome back! Glad I won’t be the only one back from a few year hiatus :)
4/15/2020 10:52 AM
Updated first post with proposed league info - for everyone who said they’re interested, give it a look and see what you think!
4/15/2020 11:52 AM
With my current work schedule I don't have time to run the formula for a league, and honestly likely don't have time to run a team for a progressive league with the draft and keeper requirements. Progressives are by far my favorite thing on here, though. My brother told me I needed to check out these forums and I so want to sign up for and/or start like 4 leagues because I love this stuff.

But, I did tell him, even if I didn't join, I'd help get the formula setup with at least the initial setup with whatever iteration of it is preferred (I recommend the one with strength of schedule built in and standard deviation adjustment, but if that's too complex for everyone or at least the person running it, then the standard formula or the standard formula with an exponential adjustment to the modifier would be my recommendation).

For anyone not familiar with the formula, I'm happy to break it down and the different iterations and their functions, as well as how it works both in theory and in practice.

Makes me miss guys like trentonjoe, dakar, stevebobldn, and dbrom... they seemed to always be able to build winning teams with nothing but scraps. And if I can find a groove with work, maybe I can start adding a few progressives back to my plate...
4/15/2020 12:30 PM
Quick note: please amend my handle to rls1. Currently listed on first post as rsl1. Don't want to miss any sitemails, etc. Thanks!
4/15/2020 12:51 PM
Posted by rls1 on 4/15/2020 12:51:00 PM (view original):
Quick note: please amend my handle to rls1. Currently listed on first post as rsl1. Don't want to miss any sitemails, etc. Thanks!
Fixed!
4/15/2020 1:38 PM
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NEW 1963 J4M formula Progressive - FULL Topic

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