Posted by sol_phenom3 on 6/4/2020 11:19:00 AM (view original):
I threw this question out there because I knew it would spark quite the discourse.

I've always seen two camps in HD - one that says ATH/SPD can't really comp for DEF outside maybe a 10 point differential - but then I've heard from you and others, TJ, and I've also seen stats (though admittedly haven't bothered to extract them to do a meaningful analysis) that seem to indicate the most disruptive defenders (though not necessarily most efficient defenders - I'm talking turnovers forced & DEF FG% with acknowledgment you'll see higher foul rates) tend to have high ATH/SPD and lower DEF, particularly in D3.

The top 10 steals leaders in Knight D3 right now have the following ratings & steals-per-foul:

	ATH	SPD	DEF	ST	DEF IQ	Defense	SPG	FPG	Steals per Foul
1	74	73	82	88	B+	FCP	2.9	1.8	1.61
2	42	76	28	85	A-	FCP	2.8	2.5	1.12
3	43	93	65	87	A-	FCP	2.7	2.2	1.23
4	65	79	51	95	A	M2M	2.5	1.9	1.32
5	52	80	58	82	A	FCP	2.5	3.0	0.83
6	50	92	44	89	A	M2M	2.4	1.8	1.33
7	53	96	48	94	A-	FCP	2.4	2.6	0.92
8	48	48	52	82	A-	FCP	2.4	2.9	0.83
9	59	93	59	83	A-	M2M	2.3	2.3	1.00
10	52	85	36	89	A-	M2M	2.2	2.2	1.00

I think you need a way higher sample size due to things like SOS, just plain randomness, how players are used, etc. I also think steals is more correlated to SP and fouls are Ath/IQ, but defense is oFG%

"And yes, there are diminishing returns and 70 to 71 is better than 90 to 91 because of diminishing returns."

What Evidence or Logic do you have to support this? I would actually say the opposite because many things in this game work on a bell curve as opposed to a linear progression.

I've talked to some of the people who know 3.0 best about specifically diminishing retuens (not saying you're not one of those people). Benis is the most recent conversation about this that comes to mind. I dont know if gillispie has talked about it before.

I would need to see some examples of this. This is so far from what I believe I find it well, unbelievable :)

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/4/2020 1:42:00 PM (view original):
I would need to see some examples of this. This is so far from what I believe I find it well, unbelievable :)

I'll submit a ticket on it.

I feel like billy has a 500 word monologue coming on the difference between absolute and relative in the terms of diminishing returns. He might even through in a deviation from the mean in there. :)

Posted by sol_phenom3 on 6/3/2020 1:42:00 PM (view original):
How defensively effective would a guard like this be at D3 on an FCP team:

80 ATH
95 SPD
35 DEF
85 ST

I know this is a two man thread but I'd like to chime in....

This player is a BEAST at D3. I'd take him on my D2 team. I'd even consider starting him. If my other 4 starters were good defensively

Always welcome, buddy.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 6/4/2020 3:03:00 PM (view original):
I feel like billy has a 500 word monologue coming on the difference between absolute and relative in the terms of diminishing returns. He might even through in a deviation from the mean in there. :)

haha, i mean... i definitely have a few paragraphs from earlier today that i didn't have time to finish. i'm not sure i can post them now though :D

Welp, I was wrong. Here's the ticket.

Me: Are there diminishing returns in HD, meaning 70 to 71 would be more of an increase than 90 to 91?

Seble: Hi,

Can you elaborate? What context are you referring to?

Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

Me: I've heard in the past that there's dimishing returns on ratings. For instance, the different between 0 to 1 Ath is more than 1 to 2 ath is more than 2 to 3 ath etc. Is that true?

Seble: Are you referring to how they impact results or how hard it is to improve them?

Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

Me: How they impact results.

Seble: No, there's no diminishing returns on performance. There may be confusion somewhere. There is somewhat of a diminishing return on practice time for players with high ratings.

Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

Posted by topdogggbm on 6/4/2020 6:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by sol_phenom3 on 6/3/2020 1:42:00 PM (view original):
How defensively effective would a guard like this be at D3 on an FCP team:

80 ATH
95 SPD
35 DEF
85 ST

I know this is a two man thread but I'd like to chime in....

This player is a BEAST at D3. I'd take him on my D2 team. I'd even consider starting him. If my other 4 starters were good defensively

Very dependent on other ratings but if he can handle the ball and/or score, sure.

I swear I wasn't making that up Trenton, lol. I gotta get Benis in here (or other people I've talked to about it, I forgot who else).

I wanna hear the Gillespie paragraph though @gillispie

Posted by Sportsbulls on 6/4/2020 11:01:00 PM (view original):
Welp, I was wrong. Here's the ticket.

Me: Are there diminishing returns in HD, meaning 70 to 71 would be more of an increase than 90 to 91?

Seble: Hi,

Can you elaborate? What context are you referring to?

Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

Me: I've heard in the past that there's dimishing returns on ratings. For instance, the different between 0 to 1 Ath is more than 1 to 2 ath is more than 2 to 3 ath etc. Is that true?

Seble: Are you referring to how they impact results or how hard it is to improve them?

Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

Me: How they impact results.

Seble: No, there's no diminishing returns on performance. There may be confusion somewhere. There is somewhat of a diminishing return on practice time for players with high ratings.

Thanks for playing on WhatIfSports.

interesting - i still have to finish my other answer on the actual question when im not just checking recruiting, but i honestly have no idea what you were looking for from CS. no disrespect! i'm just honestly baffled by the question at first blush. but it is complicated, i mean, i don't mean anything bad by it, i just want to explain why there was no chance you could ever get a satisfying answer to that ticket.

ath plays so many roles in this game, its a factor in many equations representing dozens of distinct cases, that are in some cases extremely complex comparisons, factoring in dozens of variables on both sides and performing a comparison of those products that more or less totally obfuscates the original contribution of ath. just to get the answer for 1 single aspect of ath, for 1 single situation (a fully specified set of 5 on 5 basketball), is a fairly non trivial exercise. but all those formulas - they don't all have the same answer. even one formula doesn't have one answer. the answer with a certain 5 players is different than the answer for a different 5 players - not always, but in general.

anyway - the best case scenario here is CS declining to respond - the worst is a misleading/confusion answer. i'm not sure where theirs falls, but there's definitely been a lot of tickets with questions kind of like yours (well, not as impossible to answer in a comprehensive way - but up there), that have lead to years and years of confusion. so i just kinda want to caution anybody reading anything into that response *at all*. there's nothing to take away from that.

Wait, Seble is still here??? And answering random CS questions???