Posted by fluff_nasty on 12/11/2020 3:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 12/11/2020 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by fluff_nasty on 12/11/2020 1:57:00 AM (view original):
If this user scouted for both of those teams this year, then both teams are in violation of the FPGs.

"Collusion includes any act that supports bad, deceitful or illegal behavior agreed upon by two or more users or attempted by a single user. Here are a few examples:

• Sharing Future Stars Scouting (FSS) information between multiple teams"

-Taken from the FPGs, I would post a link but ya'll know where to find them.

your interpretation of these lines is not the stated interpretation of the game admins, and i'm pretty sure you know that. two teams are explicitly allowed in a world as long as certain precautions are taken (1000 miles, different conferences) and the situation is not abused. i get you are annoyed about how the FPGs were applied to you, but you intentionally threw a NT game and lied about it, and then made a big show of carrying on like a fool. continuing to carry on about it isn't doing you any favors, coming from perhaps the one guy who actually defended you up front (i guess i more called for a calm and empathetic response, more than defended you, i suppose, but still - i suspect i was the closest thing to a defender you got).

Topdogggbm says: "It doesn't matter. It's the reason I believe 2 teams in the same world at the same division level should be eliminated all together. As far as fairplay."

All I'm saying is that he has some some legitimate ground to stand on according to the FPGs.

According to the FPGs, a user can have two teams 1,000 miles apart, but can only scout for one of them.

If he really wants to shut down multiple teams in the same world, the FPGs are on his side. That is my point here.

That’s not what sharing information means. You can scout both. I mean, you have to. You can’t recruit without scouting. You just can’t overlap in ways that benefit. So way back when I had two accounts, I coached Virginia and Abilene Christian. Well over 1000 miles, but there were some areas I had to avoid so as not to “share” information with myself. With Abilene, I couldn’t say “hey, I saw some good mid-level recruits over in Georgia, I think I’ll go FSS Georgia” and then recruit based on level 1 info, for starters. That would be sharing info with myself in violation of FPG, and it would be cheating. It would be benefiting me, and harming others. For that reason, I avoided D1 internationals even though that was a specific legit geographical advantage I gave up with a D2 TX school so close to Mexico.

Don’t get lost in the letter of the law. Focus on benefit and harm. In emy’s case, there’s no harm, and it’s frankly pretty silly to argue otherwise. That doesn’t mean multiple accounts is never a problem of course, it depends on how they’re being used.

Fluff nasty, my feelings on this have nothing to do with fairplay guidelines. It's just for simple common understanding. As far as, don't push boundaries, not doing things that are uncommon to us all for an unnecessary reason. It's like having a wife and a mistress. Sure you can have both. It's over 1000 miles away so it ain't cheating, right? Just cuz you CAN have a mistress, doesn't mean you have to. Soon everybody in the neighborhood/forums is suspicious. Moral of the story?....... why bother doing that? Just play HD normal.

Fluff, I love ya man but you gotta do whatever you gotta do to move forward regarding the fair play guidelines thing. Sure read up and refresh if it's necessary for you. But you let that ONE issue consume you! You only post here when it has something to do with fairplay guidelines. Let it go man! You will feel much better once you move past it.

I think the 1000 mile rule was okay before 3.0 recruiting

with 3.0 and greater ability to recruit at distance, I dont think two teams in a world makes sense for the good of the game. Full stop.

Personally, I see no reason to have 2 teams in the same world. IF there were not 10 worlds, maybe.

If you could not recruit across divisions, I would be fine w/ teams in separate divisions .. but even that is unnecessary.

I mean .. it is not the pressing matter, but it is unnecessary.

back 7-8 years ago, i came around to the way of thinking that getting rid of multiple teams would probably be for the best. it seemed the writing was on the wall, and while logical debates tended to go against the anti-multiple team folks, the feeling that multiple teams weren't fair seems to be pretty sincere, and it seemed like it would only get worse over time - FSS wasn't going anywhere. my request was for CS to work with existing coaches to move them around gracefully - but they refused.

not sure how many folks do the 2 teams thing anymore. it used to be pretty many - there used to be no stigma, and before FSS, there was minimal cheating concern. and of course there used to only be 1 2/day world which was also the first new world in many years, so there were a ton of folks doubled there.

my thought process was, if folks have 2 teams picked up in compliance with the rules, and you want to change them - facilitate that process. CS refused and struck a crappy bargain to avoid dealing with it, and we are still stuck in this in between nonsense. at this point i'd just make the rule change and give every world 6 seasons to come into compliance, something like that. its probably rare enough and the multiple team issue has been a thing long enough, that helping those coaches move now seems less essential. i still think it was pretty irresponsible to let the situation play out the way they did, failing to resolve anything back then is why we still talk about all this. if it wasn't too hard, i'd like to see CS offer to help the multiple team folks move gracefully, as a show of good faith - but seems unlikely with how short staffed they are.

With new staff at WIS, and a fresh look at all the games, it is a perfect opportunity for them to come down SQUARELY in the side of no-cheating. One most obvious way to do this is an absolute prohibition on multiple teams in a world. Like it or not, allowing multiple teams in a world allows cheating. Yes, some customers may have multiple teams in a world and not cheat, but to allow multiple teams is to allow an environment in which cheating can proliferate.

Surely one thing that would help with new customer retention is the assurance that cheating is absolutely prevented as much as possible and is dealt with severely if it does happen.

I don't disagree with a lot of that DeBeque, but I would say it's not that simple.

So, let's talk about this, there are teams that operate in the open having 2 schools in the same world, pretty much harmlessly. There are probably more that operate in darkness as well. I could spend my rotations, using the tools I have to find all these accounts, but wouldn't you rather me respond to this issues reactively and have new features and focus on bringing new users to the game where these two account users would be diluted in a sea of players.

I am generally in the camp of shoe on this one. We have a dying game (that is a fact), In a perfect world, yes, there wouldn't be users with two account in the same world, let alone division. "But don’t get lost in the letter of the law. Focus on benefit and harm." It would be pretty obvious to see if these users with multiple team were sharing information based on where recruits are signed, etc.

In this case, the FPG have been around for awhile and probably need to be reexamined. I'll be honest with you all I've known of emy since my first season, but I had no idea that was his account as well, I would gander at the forums from time to time but I would mostly live in my own world. The optics on the situation aren't great and you are right DeBeque, there needs to be transparency about these accounts (which emy has done), and probably a good middle ground is looking at updating the guidelines to include 1000 miles between schools and not in the same division, so there is not direct competition between schools. An update to the job application process would remove the need for crossover years, which I would see as an excuse users might use.

Either way I appreciate the conversations in this thread, I have spoken the GD thread that if you think there is cheating going on never hesitate to email me at [email protected].

Emy isn't a bad guy or a known cheater. Its not about the specific coach, and more about the the situation. I tend to disagree that it would be "easy" to see someone abusing these situations. It's not easy. Not everyone knows who is who.

The irony here adam...... Both coaches you mentioned actually have THREE accounts each! (And who knows, maybe more)

Emy1013 = dcy0827 = angmar
debeque = coachspud = l8Or20

In spud/debeque/l8Or20 case, he uses these types of scenarios to comment on things like this to create "humor" that isn't actually funny, maybe it is funny to himself I don't know. He knows he's a multiple profile guy, which isn't a big deal. But he hides behind it gets satisfaction from posting on things like this.

I am not saying anyone is cheating .. just that there is no reason (any more) to have more than one team in a given world. There are enough worlds to move.

I am sure people could get their current entry in the world database moved so they can use that in a world they are not already in.

Again .. it is not the biggest deal. If someone has to cheat to win, well, then i guess if they can live with that, so can I. I'm sure most coaches are not cheating.

Posted by hughesjr on 12/13/2020 9:37:00 AM (view original):
I am not saying anyone is cheating .. just that there is no reason (any more) to have more than one team in a given world. There are enough worlds to move.

I am sure people could get their current entry in the world database moved so they can use that in a world they are not already in.

Again .. it is not the biggest deal. If someone has to cheat to win, well, then i guess if they can live with that, so can I. I'm sure most coaches are not cheating.

Agreed. And to be clear, I believe both coaches and all the combined IDs I mentioned above are NOT doing anything wrong

Unless and until there is a way to structurally prohibit multiple accounts - so an effective IP ban that is not manipulated by VPN or other such gamer techniques, and/or credit card checks - a verbal prohibition really only increases CS workload, increases forum angst, and ultimately only catches the people who aren’t trying to cheat. I don’t think it’s something for developers to waste time on, except when we see suspicious stuff happening and report it.

Playing a multiplayer online game, you kind of have to live with the fact that some folks will go to some really weird lengths to feel like winners, and just play your own game and have fun.

“So relax! Let's have some fun out here! This game's fun, OK? Fun g*dd*mmit.”

I'm not expecting CS to weed out every little user ID. I'm just throwing out there "should we add to the fairplay guidelines that only 1 team per world is acceptable"? And just discussing that with the community

I have always believed that alt IDs should be linked in some way. You should be required to identify your alternative IDs because why would you ever want to intentionally hide them? Most people are very forthcoming with the other IDs that they use but occasionally you will find someone who will will lie about it which is so bizarre.

Coachspud/l80r20/debeque is the same user and was caught using all these IDs on the forums and he has refused to admit he was the same person. And then we had the whole thing recently with Fluff's brother in-law who lied to us all and say they didn't know each other. Personally, I think those are the users that we need to worry about - those who are intentionally trying to deceive everyone else who plays the game and uses the forums.

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/13/2020 10:43:00 AM (view original):
I'm not expecting CS to weed out every little user ID. I'm just throwing out there "should we add to the fairplay guidelines that only 1 team per world is acceptable"? And just discussing that with the community

Yeah, I get it. My answer is no, we shouldn’t. Because it isn’t, to my knowledge, enforceable, and so will only create more work for CS and a worse atmosphere on the forums. And will only “catch” non-cheaters.

Posted by shoe3 on 12/13/2020 11:09:00 AM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 12/13/2020 10:43:00 AM (view original):
I'm not expecting CS to weed out every little user ID. I'm just throwing out there "should we add to the fairplay guidelines that only 1 team per world is acceptable"? And just discussing that with the community

Yeah, I get it. My answer is no, we shouldn’t. Because it isn’t, to my knowledge, enforceable, and so will only create more work for CS and a worse atmosphere on the forums. And will only “catch” non-cheaters.

Fair enough. My point was not for the purpose of catching those who do this now. But to start from ground zero TODAY so that future coaches that join, won't say.... oh cool I can get multiple teams in each world...... and over time, hopefully some good comes from it.

I just like that we're discussing!