buy BROS now

no i am not a certaintied monetary exterminator

rem when that one guy kept coming on here shilling bitcoin

i am always on the side of labor in these negotiations

buy BROS now. their people love working for peanuts!

If you enjoy baseball podcasts, this is a good one and the most recent episode talks about the current negotiations.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/toeing-the-slab-with-david-cone/id1590924044?i=1000552547939

Posted by fatguyrd on 2/28/2022 5:15:00 PM (view original):

From a Philly Sportswriter

The CliffsNotes version is that the owners stink, they don’t even like baseball, and opening day is probably not going to happen. We’re very close to that officially being pushed back. The players have put a couple of deals on the table that, if accepted right then and there, would constitute a “win” for the owners. But it seems like they’re more interested in breaking the union than actually getting back to playing the game.

Reminder – owners chose the lockout, then decided not to negotiate for 42 days. They’re the ones giving the hardline stance that is going to cancel regular season games and jeopardize the 162 game season.

It's interesting to me that both sides make the same claims.

MLB has claimed that every time they feel like negotiations are gaining ground, the Union comes back with a demand that is even further away from previous discussions. "e.g. "We want $100M"..."We'll give you $80M"..."We want $120M!"

I have no clue what's true, but neither side seems to be negotiating in good faith. They seem to miss the fact that negotiation requires sacrifice to reach a middle ground. Not dig your heels in as hard as you can and refuse to budge.

As usual, both sides are intent on beating each other, and neither side gives a crap about the fans, who are ultimately the ones that suffer the most in these situations. They just assume the fans will sit idly by while they bicker, and then warmly embrace them again when they finally reach a deal. It gets tiresome. I'll always come back because I love baseball, but to know both sides just assume that and act like they don't have to acknowledge me as the consumer of their product...it's frustrating to say the least. They will lose plenty of fans over this squabble.

Owners and players care about the fans in the same way movie studios and actors care about their fans, which is akin to how leeches care about their host. The emotional connection is one-sided, and almost purely based in nostalgia and a longing for our youth. MLB knows that and exploits it. It's fairly disgusting, from an objective point of view.

Posted by RedRaiderLaw on 3/2/2022 1:26:00 PM (view original):
Owners and players care about the fans in the same way movie studios and actors care about their fans, which is akin to how leeches care about their host. The emotional connection is one-sided, and almost purely based in nostalgia and a longing for our youth. MLB knows that and exploits it. It's fairly disgusting, from an objective point of view.

The bloodsucking prices for autographs and the graffiti scribble signatures are examples of the condescending
disrespect today’s players have for fans.

There was a time when the small gesture was an honor to a player and they wanted to give fans a treasurable momento.

And with cards and baseball books for kids and up the hobby part of baseball was big.
Now it about hats and jerseys with jacked up prices not that there is anything wrong with that.

Posted by Jetson21 on 3/2/2022 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by RedRaiderLaw on 3/2/2022 1:26:00 PM (view original):
Owners and players care about the fans in the same way movie studios and actors care about their fans, which is akin to how leeches care about their host. The emotional connection is one-sided, and almost purely based in nostalgia and a longing for our youth. MLB knows that and exploits it. It's fairly disgusting, from an objective point of view.

The bloodsucking prices for autographs and the graffiti scribble signatures are examples of the condescending
disrespect today’s players have for fans.

There was a time when the small gesture was an honor to a player and they wanted to give fans a treasurable momento.

And with cards and baseball books for kids and up the hobby part of baseball was big.
Now it about hats and jerseys with jacked up prices not that there is anything wrong with that.

The interesting thing to me is how the baseball card hobby has made an effort to try to make as much money off Gen X as possible, probably at the expense of cultivating an equally passionate consumer base among millennials and post-millennials. But what do I know? I'm not their target demo (I mean, I am Gen X who grew up on junk wax, but I'm not one of the guys buying $20+ packs of baseball cards).

If I understand all of this correctly (and that's a big if), the owners have gotten most of what they wanted in a new deal - but they're holding out for more. Word has it that they don't care about missing a month or two of the regular season - as long as they get the "playoff revenue". Therefore, if I were the players, I'd hold out until June or so when the owners are ready to get this thing done - then I'd say, "You know what, no - we want what we originally came here for." Screw you guys - we'll hold out all season if we have to."

I know it'll never happen and as a fan of baseball, I wouldn't want to see an entire season lost - but deep down I think it would be sweet to watch them royally stick it to the owners.

Specifically addressing the playoff issue - seems expanded playoffs benefits everyone. Owners make more money, players make more money (because more of them are playing in the postseason, getting bonuses, etc.), and fans get more baseball, with the increased likelihood of seeing their team play in the playoffs. Seems that item should be a no-brainer.

Posted by jmcraven74 on 3/2/2022 2:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 3/2/2022 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by RedRaiderLaw on 3/2/2022 1:26:00 PM (view original):
Owners and players care about the fans in the same way movie studios and actors care about their fans, which is akin to how leeches care about their host. The emotional connection is one-sided, and almost purely based in nostalgia and a longing for our youth. MLB knows that and exploits it. It's fairly disgusting, from an objective point of view.

The bloodsucking prices for autographs and the graffiti scribble signatures are examples of the condescending
disrespect today’s players have for fans.

There was a time when the small gesture was an honor to a player and they wanted to give fans a treasurable momento.

And with cards and baseball books for kids and up the hobby part of baseball was big.
Now it about hats and jerseys with jacked up prices not that there is anything wrong with that.

The interesting thing to me is how the baseball card hobby has made an effort to try to make as much money off Gen X as possible, probably at the expense of cultivating an equally passionate consumer base among millennials and post-millennials. But what do I know? I'm not their target demo (I mean, I am Gen X who grew up on junk wax, but I'm not one of the guys buying $20+ packs of baseball cards).

JM, my theory is that once it went from Topps, Flair and the Donfryess on a smaller scale, to loads and loads of companies and many sub collections within companies it was no longer something for kids but just older inveterate collectors with money in it less for hobby than for a shiny object investment to be sold on a rainy day:

Posted by jmcraven74 on 3/1/2022 6:04:00 PM (view original):
Our country, especially our media, is very pro labor. I'm not in the least surprised to see them supporting the players here.

Interestingly, I feel many fans support the players, not because they think they're in the right, but because that is who we are fans of. Nobody follows a team because we like the ownership

That said, I'm a little older, and I recall what is used to cost for a ticket to a ballgame back when the evil owners had more power. As the players have gained leverage over the last 40-45 years, I can hardly afford to attend games anymore. It doesn't take a computer program to see the direct relation between rising annual player salaries and rising ticket/parking costs. Not to mention these guys making $25-35 mil a year, jacking up the costs of tickets, but not playing every day, so my ticket costs are through the roof, and there a solid chance I won't even get to seen Captain Universe play because the $30 million man needs a rest day.

There is no correlation between payroll and ticket prices. If that was the case, ticket prices should’ve fallen every year from 2015 to 2019 as the median salary dropped.

Posted by DoctorKz on 3/1/2022 9:34:00 PM (view original):
Don't expect these clowns to do what's best for the game. This is all posturing, a roomful of Kroenke type fat cats. Money is all that matters. Dewitt lost my loyalty a few years ago with his whining that the club didn't generate enough revenue, despite the valuation of the franchise going through the stratosphere. I don't buy tickets or merchandise. I watch from afar.

We will see a repeat of '94-95, fans will be turned off in droves. They will realize they need us more than we need them...

How is a guy who’s averaging 40,000 a game in attendance, and has dropped below 3rd in NL attendance once in the past 15 years gonna cry poor xD

Not only has the median salary dropped substantially (from $1.65 million in 2015 to $1.15 million in 2021), the average has gone down 6% since 2017 even with the massive contracts to the very top, and that's without adjusting for inflation. despite this, and despite rapidly increasing revenues, the owners decided against continuing with the expired CBA that was already in their favor and have locked the players out in hopes of leveraging missed paychecks to get an even more favorable CBA. they're straight up holding the game hostage because record profits aren't enough for them. it's painfully obvious who's to blame for anyone paying attention.

Posted by Jtpsops on 3/2/2022 3:04:00 PM (view original):
Specifically addressing the playoff issue - seems expanded playoffs benefits everyone. Owners make more money, players make more money (because more of them are playing in the postseason, getting bonuses, etc.), and fans get more baseball, with the increased likelihood of seeing their team play in the playoffs. Seems that item should be a no-brainer.

if all you have to do to make the playoffs is win 84 games or so then there would be a lot less incentive for owners to pay good free agents

not to mention it would almost completely devalue the regular season. right now in the NHL and NBA the regular season is almost irrelevant, anyone decent has locked up a playoff spot by about the halfway mark of the regular season. with baseball I want to see pennant races and regular season games that matter, not resting the starters for the playoffs starting in mid August.

@06gsp...and you know what has NOT declined? Ticket prices. To the earlier discussion in this thread, salaries do not drive ticket prices, in either direction.

Ticket prices are set to maximize revenue. Period. Whether salaries go up or down, the ticket prices that maximize revenue do not change.

Posted by 06gsp on 3/2/2022 4:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 3/2/2022 3:04:00 PM (view original):
Specifically addressing the playoff issue - seems expanded playoffs benefits everyone. Owners make more money, players make more money (because more of them are playing in the postseason, getting bonuses, etc.), and fans get more baseball, with the increased likelihood of seeing their team play in the playoffs. Seems that item should be a no-brainer.

if all you have to do to make the playoffs is win 84 games or so then there would be a lot less incentive for owners to pay good free agents

not to mention it would almost completely devalue the regular season. right now in the NHL and NBA the regular season is almost irrelevant, anyone decent has locked up a playoff spot by about the halfway mark of the regular season. with baseball I want to see pennant races and regular season games that matter, not resting the starters for the playoffs starting in mid August.

I totally get there are multiple ways to look at it. And I agree...the more playoff teams, the more it waters things down.

But you can argue it builds fan interest in the sense that more teams are in the playoff hunt. An 80-win team right now is probably not selling out in August and September. But if that team is suddenly in the hunt for a WC, more fans will likely show up to games.

And from an anti-tanking perspective, bottom teams may spend a bit more if they think they have a shot at playoffs. Right now, it's a "What's the difference between winning 80 or 60? I might as well save money and get a better draft pick if I'm missing the playoffs anyway". More playoff spots alters the position/thinking of some of those teams.

It's a mixed bag, but there are benefits for everyone in expanding playoffs.