Do hawks fans still like carcillo?

Wow...I leave the country for one weekend and everything goes to ****! Lol...yeah that was an embarrassing Alberta trip. I hope the hawks won't become one of those teams that beat the canucks and sharks and lose to the flames. I think one thing is obvious about this team. I think they're pretty ok at forward. They've got enough offensive punch. A top 6 power forward would be a welcome addition, but I think every team will tell u that. What I think they need more is a big stay st home dman who can clear the crease, cause Seabrook is the only one they have.

No question they can score... But Toews needs a line mate when sharp, Kane, and Hossa are paired up. They could use a top 6 guy imo. more pressing is a 4th defensemen. Right now they are not equipped to handle injuries to the better players on the team imo.... And their schedule is just starting to get more difficult.

If you had a chance to watch Sid play the other night you'd know what makes an elite player imo. One of the Philly writers I read said 'Giroux 26 points.... Crosby needs 22 to catch up... He'll be ahead by Xmas' I have to agree. Can't imagine anyone but a hawks fan (ie committed Indian... Who predicted 100 point seasons from both Kane and Toews last season) saying that about Toews.

Crosby is in a class by himself imo. Considering that fact, if he is the benchmark for what's considered "elite", then no one else in the league should be considered as such. That said, I think with the continued improvement of Kane and toews as overall players in combination with the recent regression of players like ovie, malkin and backstrom, I think both Kane and toews are arguably both in that second tier at this point in time.

Posted by andru2797 on 11/23/2011 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Crosby is in a class by himself imo. Considering that fact, if he is the benchmark for what's considered "elite", then no one else in the league should be considered as such. That said, I think with the continued improvement of Kane and toews as overall players in combination with the recent regression of players like ovie, malkin and backstrom, I think both Kane and toews are arguably both in that second tier at this point in time.

I would put Crosby in a class with Lidstrom and Brodour. these are elite players with elite careers (that include setting multiple records and plenty of trophies) imo. Lidstrom at 40 won his what, 7th Norris? Brodour just had his first losing season in 20 seasons.

Benchmark for elite is set by it's definition 'the best of the best' so yes Sid sets the standard for elite imo. Toews is a great player but you and i agree he is nowhere near Sids status... The best of the best. No argument about them being in the second tier, but elite is not the second tier of the best ;)

Should be a good game tonight. Seabs, Bolland, and frolik sound as if they will play.

Posted by andru2797 on 11/23/2011 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Crosby is in a class by himself imo. Considering that fact, if he is the benchmark for what's considered "elite", then no one else in the league should be considered as such. That said, I think with the continued improvement of Kane and toews as overall players in combination with the recent regression of players like ovie, malkin and backstrom, I think both Kane and toews are arguably both in that second tier at this point in time.

Have another drink Andru ...i was expecting Andru to throw two 60 point players into this mix ...take off the rose coloured glasses already

niemi says no

Great game last night. All in all I'm pretty happy with how this team without Seabrook competed against one of the favorites in the west. Niemi was great, as were both PKs.

As for the elite players, I wouldn't put lidstrom and brodeur in there currently. For their careers absolutely, but right now its sid and everyone else. Lidstrom has struggled at times this year (finally!) and brodeur is into his second season too many imo.

Posted by randle44 on 11/23/2011 10:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by andru2797 on 11/23/2011 4:17:00 PM (view original):
Crosby is in a class by himself imo. Considering that fact, if he is the benchmark for what's considered "elite", then no one else in the league should be considered as such. That said, I think with the continued improvement of Kane and toews as overall players in combination with the recent regression of players like ovie, malkin and backstrom, I think both Kane and toews are arguably both in that second tier at this point in time.

Have another drink Andru ...i was expecting Andru to throw two 60 point players into this mix ...take off the rose coloured glasses already

Kane has a career high of 88 and toews 76...and two rings, a gold and silver Olympic medal at the Olympics and world junior and a conn smythe and Stanley cup clinching goal between them.

The sedins have an art Ross each and a presidents trophy. I'm sure that's well worth the 12.2million they're being paid.

Posted by andru2797 on 11/24/2011 7:07:00 AM (view original):
Great game last night. All in all I'm pretty happy with how this team without Seabrook competed against one of the favorites in the west. Niemi was great, as were both PKs.

As for the elite players, I wouldn't put lidstrom and brodeur in there currently. For their careers absolutely, but right now its sid and everyone else. Lidstrom has struggled at times this year (finally!) and brodeur is into his second season too many imo.

Brodeur and Lidstrom are examples of modern day 'Elite' players.  Sure this season they are both struggling (they are also both ~40 years old which speaks volumes).  If you took Toews 'currently' (i.e. just this season) like you suggest then he is nowhere near 'elite' - He is 4th in scoring, on just his own team.  I agree lidstrom and brodeur have 'fallen off' due to age and they are not 'currently' elite this season but I truly think an elite player needs a track record to show they are not a one-season wonder.  Thats why I'd still put Ovechkin in the 'elite' category.  In 6 seasons he has 630 career points.  Compare that to Jagr (another elite winger) and he had 538 career points after his first 6 seasons (including a 149 point season).  Ovechkin is 26 (I think) and already has a 40+, three 50+, and one 65 goal season.  He slipped a bit last season and STILL had 85 points and 11 gwg.   Hes a 5 time allstar with 2 MVP (Harts), 2 Rocket Richards, an Art Ross, 3 Ted Lindsays, a Calder, and about 6-8 NHL records to boot in only 6 seasons in the NHL.  No one has accumulated that much medal faster, ever.  The only thing left for him to achieve is a Stanley Cup (and he will probably have at least another 10-13 seasons to get it). 



edit - and technically , without going back 3-5 seasons for a track record of success, even Sid is not a 'currently' elite player.  He's got 4 points in 2 games this season ;) Just like with Toews you have to go back a few seasons to make an argument for him (since he won just about all his medal in the 09-10 season).  thats  why I still think Ovie is Elite.  

Like I said, I have a hard time putting anyone in sids class, which is why I lumped the rest in the 2nd tier. We've had this argument before, but I think toews brings arguably as much to a team as ovie does, just in different ways. Ovie scores and hits more. Toews wins faceoffs and plays excellent defense. Sid becomes the best at anything he sets out to improve (in his game). That's why he's in a class by himself.

Posted by andru2797 on 11/24/2011 3:11:00 PM (view original):
Like I said, I have a hard time putting anyone in sids class, which is why I lumped the rest in the 2nd tier. We've had this argument before, but I think toews brings arguably as much to a team as ovie does, just in different ways. Ovie scores and hits more. Toews wins faceoffs and plays excellent defense. Sid becomes the best at anything he sets out to improve (in his game). That's why he's in a class by himself.

He doesn't 'just' score more. He scored more than anybody in the NHL over the last 6 seasons (including Crosby with 576 points in 6 seasons and Toews 286 in 4 seasons, Ovie's at 630). That's best of the best material. Toews wins more faceoffs cause he's a center. Ovie plays the wing. You are practically saying Toews is as good a young jaromir jagr cause he wins more faceoffs and plays better defense. I disagree... jagr was elite imo, and Ovie has even better numbers than him. If Ovie plays 10 more seasons he is a top 10 alltime points leader in the NHL.