Like any single setting, positioning isn't a magic bullet. A +3 will help your cause against 3pt shots, but it's not going to guarantee a bad shooting night. It's a fine balance, otherwise the entire outcome could be controlled via one coach setting, and then the game becomes more like a guessing game where the coach who guesses what the other will do will win. Kinda like the old Tecmo Bowl game where if you guess the offensive play it's a loss every time.

Because there is so much going into each possession it's not possible to point at an outcome and say that one component is not working properly. We have the advantage of being able to isolate each component and run many games to see the actual effect.

Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 9/02/2009Like any single setting, positioning isn't a magic bullet. A +3 will help your cause against 3pt shots, but it's not going to guarantee a bad shooting night. It's a fine balance, otherwise the entire outcome could be controlled via one coach setting, and then the game becomes more like a guessing game where the coach who guesses what the other will do will win. Kinda like the old Tecmo Bowl game where if you guess the offensive play it's a loss every time.

Because there is so much going into each possession it's not possible to point at an outcome and say that one component is not working properly. We have the advantage of being able to isolate each component and run many games to see the actual effect

But if said components (DEF Rating, defensive positioning, etc) are "working properly" then why are there the constant results and arguments/complaints that say otherwise?

As far as my experience goes, defense seems rather meaningless...it almost always seems like the offense is going to get theirs regardless of DEF ratings, defensive positioning, high stl/blk teams, low foul teams, etc. Like I've said before, you can think that your concepts are right all day long, but if when you play them out they look WRONG and paying customers keep saying so, then said concept needs to seriously be looked into for a change, or at the very least tweaked. I know its been this way since the beginning, but determining the block after the missed shot is hilarious to me...it makes for a very odd looking boxscore.

This post has no reason to be deleted, it concerns everything that everyone has been talking about and I've played the game as recently as 2.5 months ago...nothing's changed since then so my points/claims/concerns should still be valid.

To me, this is how the make/block/miss logic should work:

Assume a 2-pt attempt. The shooter shoots 48.3% 2FG%. His on-ball defender's block% is 1.5%. Then, with 1000 iterations:

1-483 - shot made
484-498 - shot blocked
499-1000 - shot missed

But then there's also the complications of the possibility of a foul on a shot attempt (in which case a miss doesn't count as a missed FGA), or blocks from other defenders. Perhaps seble can illuminate us exactly how the make/block/miss logic does work.

"6. Every missed field goal attempt in a normal possession is rebounded."

here is an opportunity for more organic stoppage - irl sometimes missed shots go out of bounds too

Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 9/01/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By tracyr on 9/01/2009

holy christ you two (c19,ash)

you both are being ridiculous - a 50 pct shooter isnt gonna shoot 7-14 EVERY FREAKIN GAME - some games he will shoot 2-14, others 11-14 - you guys act as if someone should hit their averages every single game

just - stupid

A. Like ashamael said...THAT ISN'T EVEN WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

and

B. To address your claim...I WANT THAT KIND OF RANDOMNESS...and just to put some numbers and/or theory to it....if X guy shoots 55%....let's say you draw a random number and if its between 1-55 its a make and if its between 56-100 its a miss.......48 is drawn....MAKE. Part of the problem is that they seem to use PSEUDO randomness over TRUE randomness (view here http://www.boallen.com/random-numbers.html) thus that's why we see all of the bizarre clustering that goes on. If I get wronged by "statistical bad luck" using TRUE randomness, then I'm cool with that...PSEUDO randomness clusters...we see a lot of clustering in the NBA sim....coincidence? NOPE.

Part of the problem with FG percentages though is that the DEF ratings don't have enough of an affect, if any on the offensive player shooting. The block is determined after the missed shot happened....THAT'S HILARIOUS....that's how it happens in real life you know. The factors involved in a field goal attempt in this game should be MAKE %, MISS %, and BLK % as a separate factor, not simply blended in with the MISS %.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a great offensive player go off on a great defender (90+ DEF Rating) and its those inconsistencies that make me never want to play this game again....if DEF Rating means nothing (which it seems to), then why have it?

Rob, we are being objective about the game(s), customer service, etc. on this site...we don't have WIS tattoos that we must worship 24-7-365. Take the blinders off man, the game is atrocious, and the lack of customers and number of complaints say so.

uhhh no - i was talking about your replies to the *statistical bad luck* line

and i have gone head to head with WIS many times you moron

you = objective??? thats the funniest thing i have read on this site in years

Quote: Originally Posted By jweb1510 on 9/02/2009
To me, this is how the make/block/miss logic should work:

Assume a 2-pt attempt. The shooter shoots 48.3% 2FG%. His on-ball defender's block% is 1.5%. Then, with 1000 iterations:

1-483 - shot made
484-498 - shot blocked
499-1000 - shot missed

But then there's also the complications of the possibility of a foul on a shot attempt (in which case a miss doesn't count as a missed FGA), or blocks from other defenders. Perhaps seble can illuminate us exactly how the make/block/miss logic does work.

i think the defenders blk pct should affect the FG% of the shooter - so it wouldnt be 1-483 - it should lower that

as in - 1-483 make, 484-1000 miss - then add the blk% - subtracting from the make

Block should be determined before the shooting action, imo. Offensive player takes a shot, there is x chance of it being blocked, then we use defense and positioning of the defender to effect FG% of the shooter.

Then again, I don't care how it gets done. I just want everyone to be happy so leagues don't take so damn long to fill up.

Im pretty sure that right now block functions as a % modifier to chance of miss/make and then for window dressing for the box score some misses are determined to have been blocked

That's correct. It's difficult to determine block before make/miss, because then you're skewing shooting percentage.

For example, say a guy shoots 50% and there is a 5% block chance. If you split the odds as 45% make, 5% block, 50% miss, then you've reduced the player's shooting percent to 45%. If you split the odds as 50% make, 5% block, 45% miss, then you're not penalizing the shooter at all for the block chance. So we apply an adjustment to the shooting percent (would not be -5% in this case) and then if it's a miss give it a chance of being blocked. That way we account for the effect of a shot blocker even if he doesn't actually block the shot. So in effect, a good shot blocker can decrease opponent shooting percentage without ever blocking a shot. Which is how a real game works.

Also, the impact of block% is not limited to the on-ball defender. It's a combination of all 5 defenders.

so - you are playing man to man D - Jordan is guarding Kobe on the perimeter, as is BJ Armstrong against Fisher, while Lamar Odom drives to the hoop, you are telling me MJ's and BJ's block pct is added in to determine a block? that doesnt seem right

i would think it would be the on the ball defender and the PF & C (if not on the ball)

you are saying it is good to have high blk% backcourt guys? even if in reality they would have nothing to do with the play? - i just dont see Jordan leaving Kobe to try a behind the back block

You can't think of it in that specific scenario. If we didn't account for guards in help defense, then we'd be ignoring any guards with shot-blocking ability. And guards aren't always on the perimeter. I'm sure MJ blocked plenty of shots as a help defender.

TS Eliot - The Hollow Men

A penny for the Old Guy
I
We a the hollow me
We a the stuffed me
Leaning togethe
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas
Our dried voices, whe
We whisper togethe
A quiet and meaningles
As wind in dry gras
Or rats' feet over broken glas
In our dry cella
Shape without form, shade without colour
Paralysed force, gestu without motion
Those who have crossedWith dict eyes, to death's other Kingdo
member us - if at all - not as lostViolent souls, but onl
As the hollow me
The stuffed men

II
Eyes I da not meet in dam
In death's dam kingdo
These do not appear
The, the eyes
Sunlight on a broken colum
The, is a te swingin
And voices
In the wind's singin
Mo distant and mo solem
Than a fading star
Let me be no nea
In death's dam kingdo
Let me also wea
Such deliberate disguise
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed stave
In a fieldBehaving as the wind behave
No near
Not that final meetin
In the twilight kingdo

III
This is the dead landThis is cactus landHe the stone image
A raised, he they ceiv
The supplication of a dead man's handUnder the twinkle of a fading star
Is it like thi
In death's other kingdo
Waking alon
At the hour when we
Tmbling with tendernes
Lips that would kis
Form prayers to broken stone

IV
The eyes a not h
The a no eyes h
In this valley of dying star
In this hollow valle
This broken jaw of our lost kingdom
In this last of meeting place
We grope togethe
And avoid speec
Gathed on this beach of the tumid rive
Sightless, unles
The eyes appea
As the perpetual sta
Multifoliate ros
Of death's twilight kingdo
The hope onl
Of empty men

V
He we go round the prickly pea
Prickly pear prickly pea
He we go round the prickly pea
At five o'clock in the morning.Between the ide
And the alit
Between the motio
And the actFalls the Shado
For Thine is the KingdomBetween the conceptio
And the catio
Between the emotio
And the spons
Falls the Shado
Life is very longBetween the des
And the spas
Between the potenc
And the existenc
Between the essenc
And the descentFalls the Shado
For Thine is the KingdomFor Thine i
Life i
For Thine is th
This is the way the world end
This is the way the world end
This is the way the world end
Not with a bang but a whimper.