Then it may have had a place at one time, but I don't think it does now. Black kids can now go to whichever college they choose. I just believe that everyone should have the same admissions standards regardless of race. Lowering the standards for one race or another is actually quite offensive to that race. It is saying we don't think you are capable of competing with "______" race, so we are going to make it easier for you.

society has a full time responsibility in bettering itself and creating justice.
a real melting pot is the best stew.
who can honestly say that we lived in a more fair and just and normal society in the 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2019 12:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:20:00 PM (view original):
This explains the crux of our disagreement. You see a better society as a more diverse society. Diversity is important. I will not disagree there, but to me a better society is one that promotes hard work and achievement. I believe that each individual should strive to improve themselves. We should not punish those that produce better results. That makes for a worse society in my opinion. This is what affirmative action programs do. They reward the person who has achieved less simply because of a skin color. It is a very unjust practice in my opinion and detracts from the betterment of the world.

I think you see the world in a way that is slightly refracted from reality.

We don't live in a perfect meritocracy. That Brady White scored high on the SAT test and carried a 4.2 GPA doesn't necessarily mean he achieved the most. It just means he thrived in the system as it's set up.

If we understand that the system might have its own built in biases, then we understand that the results aren't a perfect reflection of achievement.

The simplest way to look at it, at least to me, is this:

Blacks represent 12% of the population. Because we have such a large sample, in a true color-blind meritocracy, blacks would make up roughly 12% of students at elite schools. But they don't.

Why that is is important and still somewhat unknown. But unless there is something about blacks that makes them inherently less capable than whites, there's some other factor in play.

Could it possible be that 70% of black kids come from single parent households? Could it possibly be that white kids are graduating high school at a much higher rate? These two facts have nothing to do with racism. They are flaws within a culture. We need to start accounting for the individual and stop lumping people together.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Then it may have had a place at one time, but I don't think it does now. Black kids can now go to whichever college they choose. I just believe that everyone should have the same admissions standards regardless of race. Lowering the standards for one race or another is actually quite offensive to that race. It is saying we don't think you are capable of competing with "______" race, so we are going to make it easier for you.

It's not "lower standards" it's an understanding that the traditional benchmarks for college admissions (standardized test scores and GPA) might not tell the whole story.

Posted by dino27 on 2/12/2019 12:41:00 PM (view original):
society has a full time responsibility in bettering itself and creating justice.
a real melting pot is the best stew.
who can honestly say that we lived in a more fair and just and normal society in the 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s.

No one, but that is because people were denied basic rights. I would wager that you can't name a single right in America that someone is denied now.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2019 12:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:20:00 PM (view original):
This explains the crux of our disagreement. You see a better society as a more diverse society. Diversity is important. I will not disagree there, but to me a better society is one that promotes hard work and achievement. I believe that each individual should strive to improve themselves. We should not punish those that produce better results. That makes for a worse society in my opinion. This is what affirmative action programs do. They reward the person who has achieved less simply because of a skin color. It is a very unjust practice in my opinion and detracts from the betterment of the world.

I think you see the world in a way that is slightly refracted from reality.

We don't live in a perfect meritocracy. That Brady White scored high on the SAT test and carried a 4.2 GPA doesn't necessarily mean he achieved the most. It just means he thrived in the system as it's set up.

If we understand that the system might have its own built in biases, then we understand that the results aren't a perfect reflection of achievement.

The simplest way to look at it, at least to me, is this:

Blacks represent 12% of the population. Because we have such a large sample, in a true color-blind meritocracy, blacks would make up roughly 12% of students at elite schools. But they don't.

Why that is is important and still somewhat unknown. But unless there is something about blacks that makes them inherently less capable than whites, there's some other factor in play.

Could it possible be that 70% of black kids come from single parent households? Could it possibly be that white kids are graduating high school at a much higher rate? These two facts have nothing to do with racism. They are flaws within a culture. We need to start accounting for the individual and stop lumping people together.

It could be possible. But I would say that it's impossible to separate black struggles from racism.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2019 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Then it may have had a place at one time, but I don't think it does now. Black kids can now go to whichever college they choose. I just believe that everyone should have the same admissions standards regardless of race. Lowering the standards for one race or another is actually quite offensive to that race. It is saying we don't think you are capable of competing with "______" race, so we are going to make it easier for you.

It's not "lower standards" it's an understanding that the traditional benchmarks for college admissions (standardized test scores and GPA) might not tell the whole story.

Yes, I agree with this. I am okay for making adjustments to requirements based on actual circumstances. Race is not a circumstance. This has been my argument the whole time. You have to evaluate each circumstance without considering race. Growing up in a poor, single family home affects your ability to learn. This should be taken into account. But kids from all races battle these kind of circumstances. I live in a poor, white community. They face the same struggles as black kids who live in poor communities. Affirmative action is evil because it only considers race.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2019 12:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2019 12:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:20:00 PM (view original):
This explains the crux of our disagreement. You see a better society as a more diverse society. Diversity is important. I will not disagree there, but to me a better society is one that promotes hard work and achievement. I believe that each individual should strive to improve themselves. We should not punish those that produce better results. That makes for a worse society in my opinion. This is what affirmative action programs do. They reward the person who has achieved less simply because of a skin color. It is a very unjust practice in my opinion and detracts from the betterment of the world.

I think you see the world in a way that is slightly refracted from reality.

We don't live in a perfect meritocracy. That Brady White scored high on the SAT test and carried a 4.2 GPA doesn't necessarily mean he achieved the most. It just means he thrived in the system as it's set up.

If we understand that the system might have its own built in biases, then we understand that the results aren't a perfect reflection of achievement.

The simplest way to look at it, at least to me, is this:

Blacks represent 12% of the population. Because we have such a large sample, in a true color-blind meritocracy, blacks would make up roughly 12% of students at elite schools. But they don't.

Why that is is important and still somewhat unknown. But unless there is something about blacks that makes them inherently less capable than whites, there's some other factor in play.

Could it possible be that 70% of black kids come from single parent households? Could it possibly be that white kids are graduating high school at a much higher rate? These two facts have nothing to do with racism. They are flaws within a culture. We need to start accounting for the individual and stop lumping people together.

It could be possible. But I would say that it's impossible to separate black struggles from racism.

Racism is not forcing black fathers from sticking around to raise their children. Racism isn't forcing black kids to drop out of schools. This is why we have to quit lumping groups together and look at the individual.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:38:00 PM (view original):
Then it may have had a place at one time, but I don't think it does now. Black kids can now go to whichever college they choose. I just believe that everyone should have the same admissions standards regardless of race. Lowering the standards for one race or another is actually quite offensive to that race. It is saying we don't think you are capable of competing with "______" race, so we are going to make it easier for you.

affirmative action for african americans has given way for other groups now....
and should we take away all sports scholarships that hurt kids with higher sats....
affirmative action has and continues to counter bigotry....it has succeeded for african americans and affirmative action for them is much less now then it once was.......since it has helped gay people.....exchange students......hispanics.......women........native americans........elizabeth warren........poor people who need financial help.......and so on.
and all the while we now live in a far more diverse society where families that could not exist safely 50 years ago are a new and heartwarming norm.
affirmative action is abig factor in helping our country live up to its ideals.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2019 12:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/12/2019 12:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 12:20:00 PM (view original):
This explains the crux of our disagreement. You see a better society as a more diverse society. Diversity is important. I will not disagree there, but to me a better society is one that promotes hard work and achievement. I believe that each individual should strive to improve themselves. We should not punish those that produce better results. That makes for a worse society in my opinion. This is what affirmative action programs do. They reward the person who has achieved less simply because of a skin color. It is a very unjust practice in my opinion and detracts from the betterment of the world.

I think you see the world in a way that is slightly refracted from reality.

We don't live in a perfect meritocracy. That Brady White scored high on the SAT test and carried a 4.2 GPA doesn't necessarily mean he achieved the most. It just means he thrived in the system as it's set up.

If we understand that the system might have its own built in biases, then we understand that the results aren't a perfect reflection of achievement.

The simplest way to look at it, at least to me, is this:

Blacks represent 12% of the population. Because we have such a large sample, in a true color-blind meritocracy, blacks would make up roughly 12% of students at elite schools. But they don't.

Why that is is important and still somewhat unknown. But unless there is something about blacks that makes them inherently less capable than whites, there's some other factor in play.

Could it possible be that 70% of black kids come from single parent households? Could it possibly be that white kids are graduating high school at a much higher rate? These two facts have nothing to do with racism. They are flaws within a culture. We need to start accounting for the individual and stop lumping people together.

It could be possible. But I would say that it's impossible to separate black struggles from racism.

Racism is not forcing black fathers from sticking around to raise their children. Racism isn't forcing black kids to drop out of schools. This is why we have to quit lumping groups together and look at the individual.

You have an overly-simplistic view of the world.

i feel like i was able to express myself very fairly and it was a good discussion with all.

Nope, I just believe in personal responsibility. We would have a much better society if others would join in that thought.

Posted by cccp1014 on 2/11/2019 9:53:00 PM (view original):
Bad luck lies again. He admitted that there is no white privelege but black disadvantage since Asians earn more than whites and now he goes back to his white privelege mantra. He is seriously the stupidest man alive. That is if he identifies as a man. What an *******.

cccp resorts to name calling and insults again. Dude, you should see someone about your need to insult people. It ain't healthy.

Posted by strikeout26 on 2/12/2019 11:16:00 AM (view original):
And personally, I don't care about universities becoming more "representative" (using your words). I care about the most deserving students being rewarded. Ethnicity does not matter to me at all.

I agree with you, strikeout. The most deserving student should get in, regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

KO just crushed bad luck in this debate. KO for KO. I also 100% agree with wylie.