Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition Topic

MikeT23
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Outliers.
2/23/2012 1:44 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:30:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:05:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 11:02:00 AM (view original):
Pitchers have control over their HR rate. They don't have control over what happens to a ball in play.
So they can control the distance and trajectory of a struck ball but nothing else?   And only whether or not it goes over the fence?

Do you even vaguely realize how stupid that sounds? 

"PItchers can control the distance and trajectory of a ball but only if it will travel 400 feet or more.  They control nothing else."
Well, I want an answer to this.
I'll ask you to answer this.
2/23/2012 1:45 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:07:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 11:04:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Actually, I know what you'd prefer to do.

The pitcher can control how well a ball is it.  Accept that and you'll recognize that FIP doesn't measure the effectiveness of a pitcher.
A pitcher can control how well a ball is hit. They can't control whether or not that ball is caught.
Are all struck balls equally difficult to catch?   Can a pitcher not induce a weak grounder/lazy fly ball or is that all on the batter?
Or this.

Or both.
2/23/2012 1:46 PM
tecwrg
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2/23/2012 1:47 PM
jrd_x
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Pitchers do control how well a ball is hit.  Which why it is on them if they give up a home run.  But they don't control whether or not a well hit (or weakly hit) ball in play is caught.
2/23/2012 1:48 PM
Jtpsops
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I have no trouble Guthrie would have made an all-star team in the last 4 years playing for a team other than the Orioles.
2/23/2012 1:48 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Stauffer?  Not an all star.
Luebke?  Not an all star.
Guthrie?  Not an all star
Garcia?  hasn't been an all star since 2002. (and his BABIP was .294 that year)
Dice-K? Not an all star
Zito was an all star but he also had an ERA of 4.53 in '07 with a BABIP of...wait for it ....265 
AJ Burnett? Not an all star
Danks? Not an all star

Do I have to keep going or will you admit that BABIP is outside of a pitcher's control?

Now answer this.
2/23/2012 1:49 PM
Jtpsops
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 1:48:00 PM (view original):
Pitchers do control how well a ball is hit.  Which why it is on them if they give up a home run.  But they don't control whether or not a well hit (or weakly hit) ball in play is caught.
You're still failing to grasp the concept. If a pitcher allows a hitter to put the ball where there is no fielder, that's on the pitcher. And no, I'm not talking about a weak flare of the end of the bat that bloops in for a single. That's fluky and not really the pitchers fault. I'm taking about solid singles through the IF, or extra base hits to the gap. There's zero a fielder can do about that unless he's playing way out of position.
2/23/2012 1:49 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/23/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 10:58:00 AM (view original):
A HR isn't a ball in play. I don't understand why you are arguing this point. HR aren't included in BABIP.
Are you saying that there is a substantial difference between a line drive that clears the fence by six inches and one that bangs off the wall six inches below the top?  The pitcher has control of one (because it's a HR and covered by FIP), but absolutely no influence on the other?
STILL waiting for a response to this question.
2/23/2012 1:49 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
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Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Stauffer?  Not an all star.
Luebke?  Not an all star.
Guthrie?  Not an all star
Garcia?  hasn't been an all star since 2002. (and his BABIP was .294 that year)
Dice-K? Not an all star
Zito was an all star but he also had an ERA of 4.53 in '07 with a BABIP of...wait for it ....265 
AJ Burnett? Not an all star
Danks? Not an all star

Do I have to keep going or will you admit that BABIP is outside of a pitcher's control?

Now answer this.
Outliers.
2/23/2012 1:51 PM
MikeT23
Posts: 58012 (0)
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 1:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:07:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 11:04:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Actually, I know what you'd prefer to do.

The pitcher can control how well a ball is it.  Accept that and you'll recognize that FIP doesn't measure the effectiveness of a pitcher.
A pitcher can control how well a ball is hit. They can't control whether or not that ball is caught.
Are all struck balls equally difficult to catch?   Can a pitcher not induce a weak grounder/lazy fly ball or is that all on the batter?
Or this.

Or both.
Now answer this.
2/23/2012 1:52 PM
tecwrg
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Can he answer my question that he's twice avoided first?
2/23/2012 1:54 PM
jrd_x
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3
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/23/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/23/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 10:58:00 AM (view original):
A HR isn't a ball in play. I don't understand why you are arguing this point. HR aren't included in BABIP.
Are you saying that there is a substantial difference between a line drive that clears the fence by six inches and one that bangs off the wall six inches below the top?  The pitcher has control of one (because it's a HR and covered by FIP), but absolutely no influence on the other?
STILL waiting for a response to this question.
Pitchers do control how well a ball is hit.  Which why it is on them if they give up a home run.  But they don't control whether or not a well hit (or weakly hit) ball in play is caught.
2/23/2012 1:54 PM
jrd_x
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 1:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 1:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:07:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 11:04:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 11:03:00 AM (view original):
Actually, I know what you'd prefer to do.

The pitcher can control how well a ball is it.  Accept that and you'll recognize that FIP doesn't measure the effectiveness of a pitcher.
A pitcher can control how well a ball is hit. They can't control whether or not that ball is caught.
Are all struck balls equally difficult to catch?   Can a pitcher not induce a weak grounder/lazy fly ball or is that all on the batter?
Or this.

Or both.
Now answer this.
Pitchers do control how well a ball is hit.  Which why it is on them if they give up a home run.  But they don't control whether or not a well hit (or weakly hit) ball in play is caught.
2/23/2012 1:55 PM
jrd_x
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3
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/23/2012 1:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jrd_x on 2/23/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Stauffer?  Not an all star.
Luebke?  Not an all star.
Guthrie?  Not an all star
Garcia?  hasn't been an all star since 2002. (and his BABIP was .294 that year)
Dice-K? Not an all star
Zito was an all star but he also had an ERA of 4.53 in '07 with a BABIP of...wait for it ....265 
AJ Burnett? Not an all star
Danks? Not an all star

Do I have to keep going or will you admit that BABIP is outside of a pitcher's control?

Now answer this.
Outliers.
Ok, I get.  Your brain can't handle it.  I don't think it's exactly mind blowing, but maybe you do.  The idea that a pitcher can't control whether or not balls in play are converted into outs may be hard for the mentally impaired to grasp.
2/23/2012 1:57 PM
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