Quote: Originally Posted By steelerstime on 4/10/2010
You're right cricket.

And WIS proved their position in the original miket-smoelheim issue. And how did WIS side in that one? For the owner, against the commish and the league. Only after 28 owners dropped from the world did WIS cave.

If you expect anything different from WIS, you're living in a fantasy world. They've now shown they will keep poor owners, at the expense of any league (unless you have 28 quit-then you might get WIS to reverse itself).

REMEMBER-WIS says "we evaluate". The commish and private worlds have still been neutered.

I believe this is substantially correct. WIS (like a court) will decide on the "evidence" which will be the "recalcitrant owners" adherance to league rules and the "commishs" timely notification of non-adherance (the warning letter). Commish "judgement" has been eliminated. Like a court case the Commish will need to prove the recalcitrant owner "guilty beyond reasonable doubt" (should be the recalcitrant owner has to prove himself innocent beyond reasonable doubt). League Rules need to be posted for all leagues - or they do not exist. I would suggest in the World/Commissioner thread.

Quote: Originally posted by steelerstime on 4/10/2010 They've now shown they will keep poor owners, at the expense of any league (unless you have 28 quit-then you might get WIS to reverse itself).

Actually, I believe they've shown quite the opposite. They've shown that if a commissioner complains hard enough and long enough, that they'll do whatever you ask. Even if that owner did not violate WIS ToC, Fair Play Guidelines, or league rules. As long as the commissioner and his friends threaten to pick up their toys and go home... WIS will do whatever you ask.

The precedent has been set. Any commissioner can have any user removed at any time.

Isn't that the point of having a commissioner?

Maybe the commish should have full booting power, but a player can appeal this to CS if they feel they have been wrongfully denied a renewal. Even in private worlds you should have some claim to the effort you have put into the team, assuming you have not broken any rules.

Quote: Originally posted by mrdanielx on 4/10/2010Maybe the commish should have full booting power, but a player can appeal this to CS if they feel they have been wrongfully denied a renewal. Even in private worlds you should have some claim to the effort you have put into the team, assuming you have not broken any rules.

Based on my situation, I'd say that will not happen.

As a commissioner, I would very specifically reference this whole clusterf*ck as the precedent to remove an owner for any unspecified reason I concoct.

I'm still waiting for official WIS reasoning behind my removal. In typical WIS fashion, they execute their decision (my removal from the world) at the end of the day on Friday, and will then leave for the weekend without so much as an explanation to me as to why they changed their mind.

Quote: Originally Posted By smoelheim on 4/10/2010

Quote: Originally posted by steelerstime on 4/10/2010

They've now shown they will keep poor owners, at the expense of any league (unless you have 28 quit-then you might get WIS to reverse itself).

Actually, I believe they've shown quite the opposite. They've shown that if a commissioner (or recalcitrant owner) complains hard enough and long enough, that they'll do whatever you ask. Even if that owner did not violate WIS ToC, Fair Play Guidelines, or league rules (they have set things up in the future so that violating league rules will be necessary - they have only postponed the final confrontation with this decision). As long as the commissioner and his friends threaten to pick up their toys and go home... WIS will do whatever you ask.

The precedent has been set. Any commissioner can have any user removed at any time (now substantially harder to remove and will require "proof").

highlighted inserts are mine

Smoelheim: MikeT and others on this site, will find it hilarious that I was referred to as one of "his freinds". I suggested the walkout in Coop because WIS supporting you in staying in the league struck at the heart of the function of the Commish in Private leagues. I believe their partial correction of this mistake only postpones the day of final confrontation by essentially making the process into a court case with the commish as the prosecutor and the "recalcitrant owner" the accused. This will require the Commish to prove beyond doubt that (A) the owner was warned and (B) broke the rules (no published rules = no rules). So from that prospective you won the argument and MikeT lost. Wis simply applied the rules as they existed when MikeT asked for your removal (which is what most courts would have done).

Do I think they made the right decision in the long term - NO. They should have decided that the Commishs decision ALWAYS stands unless it is so odious that they are willing to remove the Commish. Did MikeTs behavior in your case reach that degree of abuse? Has his cumulative behavior reached that point? Now that would be an interesting "court case". This was not. As presented it should have been a slam dunk for WIS. Unfortunately they even missed the lay up.

Quote: Originally posted by grivfmd1 on 4/10/2010The precedent has been set. Any commissioner can have any user removed at any time (now substantially harder to remove and will require "proof").

I disagree. I think it is substantially easier now.

Before this debacle, they had never removed an owner simply because a commish wanted him gone (I have yet to hear a specific example of this happening.. circumstances always had to be "proved").

Based on my situation, they have precisely admitted that they will remove an owner if people cry loud enough. The ONLY reason I was removed was because of Mike's complaints and the staged walkout. I did absolutely NOTHING that WIS can use as justification for removal from the league, other than to appease the owners of the world.

Quote: I believe their partial correction of this mistake only postpones the day of final confrontation

I couldn't agree with this more.

smoelheim
The ONLY reason I was removed was because of Mike's complaints and the staged walkout. I did absolutely NOTHING that WIS can use as justification for removal from the league, other than to appease the owners of the world.

Quote: I believe their partial correction of this mistake only postpones the day of final confrontation

I couldn't agree with this more.

The reason you were removed may have been that the members of Coop forced WIS to pay attention to the primary issue. Many of the owners in Cooperstown are league commissioners and they recognized that the ONLY leverage they had to effect league policy was being gutted by your willful self-serving behavior. Even if we had all agreed with your contention that you were being unfairly treated we all would have protested WIS's decision. Get off your ego / persecution trip, we felt you and WIS were damaging what many of us had worked up to 15 seasons to create. Least there be no mistake NO ONE from COOP regardless of how they feel about MikeT or your particular situation is going to welcome you into one of their leagues. You might as well have internet equivalent of small pox at this point.

Quote: Originally posted by smoelheim on 4/10/2010
Before this debacle, they had never removed an owner simply because a commish wanted him gone (I have yet to hear a specific example of this happening.. circumstances always had to be "proved").

It happened to me in Hometown. I was removed despite the protest of several league members. I certainly didn't break any rules. I did however question the commish and some of the decisions he was making. He knew I would keep speaking out against what he was doing, so he had me removed. I subsequently rejoined when the league went public to fill and the league started before he could have me removed again (again, despite the protest of several league members). He has also made it clear that he will try to have me removed again at the end of this season, so it will be interesting to see what happens...

We will be working on converting some of the strongest public wolds private come May.

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Quote: Originally posted by tzentmeyer on 4/10/2010We will be working on converting some of the strongest public wolds private come May.

Although I applaud the move, it also makes me sick to my stomach. A couple months earlier and Maris could have been saved. Bummer.

Quote: Originally posted by tzentmeyer on 4/10/2010We will be working on converting some of the strongest public wolds private come May.

Hallelujah! Christmas in May for us holding onto our original public world teams.

Quote: Originally Posted By smoelheim on 4/10/2010

Quote: Originally posted by steelerstime on 4/10/2010
They've now shown they will keep poor owners, at the expense of any league (unless you have 28 quit-then you might get WIS to reverse itself).

Actually, I believe they've shown quite the opposite. They've shown that if a commissioner complains hard enough and long enough, that they'll do whatever you ask. Even if that owner did not violate WIS ToC, Fair Play Guidelines, or league rules. As long as the commissioner and his friends threaten to pick up their toys and go home... WIS will do whatever you ask.

The precedent has been set. Any commissioner can have any user removed at any time.

I would say the very lengths required by those of Cooperstown to have you removed speaks to how difficult it will be to remove an owner, and shows the determination that WIS has to support any owner staying in a world.

Quote: Originally Posted By steelerstime on 4/10/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By smoelheim on 4/10/2010

Quote: Originally posted by steelerstime on 4/10/2010

They've now shown they will keep poor owners, at the expense of any league (unless you have 28 quit-then you might get WIS to reverse itself).

Actually, I believe they've shown quite the opposite. They've shown that if a commissioner complains hard enough and long enough, that they'll do whatever you ask. Even if that owner did not violate WIS ToC, Fair Play Guidelines, or league rules. As long as the commissioner and his friends threaten to pick up their toys and go home... WIS will do whatever you ask.

The precedent has been set. Any commissioner can have any user removed at any time.

I would say the very lengths required by those of Cooperstown to have you removed speaks to how difficult it will be to remove an owner, and shows the determination that WIS has to support any owner staying in a world

You are dead wrong. They changed their policy based on the boycott and Cooperstown. After the change in policy they removed the owner promptly, and another one from a public world that didnt actually violate the new fairplay guidelines but was obviously tanking.