Simply untrue swamphawk. There are enough in Major Leagues that I have at least 3 I can think of off-hand in Timothy Jones, Einar Almanzar and Howie Hernandez....and that's just my own ML and AAA SS's...it really does have a lot to do with drafting/developing and dismissing the concept outright like that isn't going to help you at all.

I went through your Hot Stove league, it has 162 games of stats available.

Total SSs who have HBD minimum standards: 18

That includes all minors.

Total SSs who made over 30 errors: 18

Total for real life:0 Most errors a RL SS made last year was 23.

Your SS made 43 errors, batted .251 with 12 homers. This is clearly a case of not enough decent SSs, or the game is too hard on below minimum fielding SSs.

Hot Stove isn't the example I put forth. I know for a fact that several owners in Major League's are aware of this and have drafted/developed defensive specialists. That is where the difference lies. Hot Stove is a great league, but it has not had the emphasis on drafting/developing/retaining (retirements can hurt this factor as well, keep that in mind) defensive specialists that the owners in Major Leagues have had. Try combing through thos SS's. I gaurantee you most teams have at least 1, if not several defensive SS's.

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009

I went through your Hot Stove league, it has 162 games of stats available.

Total SSs who have HBD minimum standards: 18

That includes all minors.

Total SSs who made over 30 errors: 18

Total for real life:0 Most errors a RL SS made last year was 23.

Your SS made 43 errors, batted .251 with 12 homers. This is clearly a case of not enough decent SSs, or the game is too hard on below minimum fielding SSs.

Also, keep in mind that you also can not see what they project to, so in the minors I highly doubt you'll see a lot of guys already meeting Big League standards, but they probably will.

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/08/2009I am always on the lookout for more freebies

Why should an abundance of slick-fielding, good-hitting shortstops be any different?

HBD also has significantly more chances than MLB despite similar innings. I forget what years I used, but here's a rundown of the top chance getters in Morgan versus the top chance getters in MLB.

HBD
1. Flores, 938
2. Kirby, 929
3. Williams, 874
4. Perez, 865
5. Leonard, 829

MLB
1. Furcal, 788
2. Young, 747
3. Peralta, 710
4. Betancourt, 701
5. Ramirez, 695

Quote: Originally posted by swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009I went through your Hot Stove league, it has 162 games of stats available. Total SSs who have HBD minimum standards: 18[

There's no such thing as a minimum standard. The published suggested in a ML average. So, by definition, half of starting SS's should have it.

Quote: Originally Posted By jwendt on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally posted by swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009
I went through your Hot Stove league, it has 162 games of stats available.

Total SSs who have HBD minimum standards: 18[

There's no such thing as a minimum standard. The published suggested in a ML average. So, by definition, half of starting SS's should have it

Then if it is an average, and half of the players should be below, then the errors should be much lower.

I cannot imagine anyone with any SS experience actually making 40 errors at SS.

Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By jwendt on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally posted by swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009

I went through your Hot Stove league, it has 162 games of stats available.

Total SSs who have HBD minimum standards: 18[

There's no such thing as a minimum standard. The published suggested in a ML average. So, by definition, half of starting SS's should have it.

Then if it is an average, and half of the players should be below, then the errors should be much lower.

I cannot imagine anyone with any SS experience actually making 40 errors at SS.

There are other factors you're not considering. The obvious one is the tendency of HBD managers to focus on GB pitchers. More chances = more errors. Look at fielding percentage...it might be more telling.

Quote: Originally Posted By hurricane384 on 7/09/2009
HBD also has significantly more chances than MLB despite similar innings. I forget what years I used, but here's a rundown of the top chance getters in Morgan versus the top chance getters in MLB.

HBD
1. Flores, 938
2. Kirby, 929
3. Williams, 874
4. Perez, 865
5. Leonard, 829

MLB
1. Furcal, 788
2. Young, 747
3. Peralta, 710
4. Betancourt, 701
5. Ramirez, 695

This is very interesting.

If you want more information, check out Morgan's blog...

This is the particular study I performed.

Quote: Originally Posted By hurricane384 on 7/09/2009
If you want more information, check out Morgan's blog...
This is the particular study I performed.

<< On average the top 5 SS's in Morgan world had 22% more chances than their Major League counterparts (887 to 728). Their average range factor was 5.87 versus the Major League average of 4.75. >> ... Thank you.

HBD SS's have more chances than MLB SS's. That is something to understand about HBD. It is something you can take advantage of if you understand its significance. It is not something to complain about, as some have. It is most particularly not reason to ask WIS to hand out more slick-fielding shortstops, as a few have done.

I did a big look at defensive play distribution in MG for season 11

I pulled every defesive stat for all players and made composite RF9 calcs ... generally speaking, more plays go up the middle in HBD than the MLB, and more outs are made by the IF vs. OF in HBD compared to MLB ... also, HBD pitchers have half the RF of MLB pitchers

in reference to the post above, the league-wide RF for MG SS is 5.76

I think there are too many factors at play to know for certain why the play distribution in MG is different than the MLB ... my own personal theory is that HBD owners may be "hiding" bad defenders in the COF slots (and/or making sure to take care of SS/CF) ... and over a large sample size of a world season, that manifests itself as the MIF/CF making more of the outs

Well, if HBD pitchers have half the RF of MLB pitchers, that would likely account for most of the variance. Most pitchers field 1 or 2 balls a game, that shifts half of those chances to the SS.

Think about it this way, if it gets by the mound, the SS is the only one who can make a play on the ball (unless you have a heroic -handed 2B). The excess RF/chances for HBD shortstops would be remedied by tweaking the pitcher fielding computation to better reflect MLB pitcher's chances.

Just checked MG. Pitchers have an average range factor of around 23 (high team is 33, low teams are 14). Just bump that up a bit, and the # of SS chances goes down to a more reasonable level.

MG pitcher RF = 0.7

MLB pitcher RF = 1.65

and just because the pitcher doesn't make the out doesn't mean somebody else does (they could be hits) ... and not even that it would be the SS for those that result in outs ... it could be that nobody bunts in MG, so there are no pitchers fielding bunt outs (and those extra "out opportunities" get spread out by a guy not bunting) ... or catchers field the pitcher's opportunity on bunts in HBD