what is fair play? Topic

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12/9/2009 12:20 PM
gil -i see your point with learning better by spreading it out, your point may be better proved by the GMAT example than my point #2 - and from an academic 'learning' the game, I agree

but what I am saying is more a direct gain at the moment, i.e. you recruit better right now when doing it within 30 seconds of each other

when you actually recruit for two d1 teams similateously, see for yourself if I am right - I think you will be suprised, I was suprised at least when I did it

(I have recruited for d3 and d1 teams together at the same time quite often, they have nothing in common)
12/9/2009 1:11 PM
i believe that there should be no talk or conversations about recruits at all
12/10/2009 8:09 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By oldresorter on 12/09/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 12/08/2009
i think ORs issue is a more interesting one, more interesting than multiple teams in 1 world in different divisions. how about 2 teams in the same division? i've had multiple d2 teams, and i figure d3 would be even less of an advantage... well in d2, i just don't see it there. there is little competition, i don't know any market, nor do i pay attention to what anybody else is doing. so im not sure it would help me even if they were close, not to mention, across the country.

anyway, how about multiple d1 teams. could you elaborate a bit OR? i am very curious, as i just dropped my d3 team in favor of a california d1 team (assuming i get the job, low prestige, so likely). i figured there was no non-negligible advantage to it, as california is so far from kentucky. i understand knowing the market there, i tend to watch the teams after the top players in my area in case they over extend themselves, etc... but i don't think either team would have any overlap in their market. i'm not even sure any team in kentuckys market would get involved with a team in californias market. so what difference would it make?
18" of snow today

here is why I think it is an advantage and / or conflict to have multiple teams in the same division:

1 - at bargain shopping time, when I look national, and I find someone, who do I give the recruit to?

2 - before recruiting, when I look for the guys I will recruit local, I get a feel for what is available, I then do the same process over again, it is like taking an alegebra test on the same subject, the second test would be easier as result of the first one (reason we take practice tests for getting into grad school)

3 - no saying anyone would do it, but gil, if you took a team d-, but built them into a b+ prestige team in california, and had kentucky with your 2nd id, what is going to prevent the ucla coach from saying you are colluding with yourself to harm ucla and help kentucky, every time you go for a local recruit vs him, even if you were innocent, he would have a point, especially if kentucky and ucla were the top two teams in that world



I coach Florida and Syracuse in Phelan. I actually find it harder for me to recruit for these two teams because I am always afraid of being accused of cheating. I think as long as your two teams are not close than it shouldnt be an issue. I never even look at the players names until well into recruiting anyway. And with my normal semi shotgun approach and the fact that I try to stay relativly local whenever possible I see no advantage. I always target my recruits during the previous season as the season progresses with my future needs in thought... and these needs change throught out the whole process.

example. I was 100 percent sure SG Melgoza was going pro so I was obviously targeting SG's Well he decided to stay and I lost a who scored 2 points a game and had no business leaving... so all the recruing I did during the season just threw me for a loop and i had to start over. I think there si some change that makes me do this almost every season.



The only advatage I ever really saw was when I actually had SU and Florida show up on the same recruit( I have done it 2 times).... I put myself in a situation where it is impossible to not favor one school over the other.
12/10/2009 8:24 AM
The only advatage I ever really saw was when I actually had SU and Florida show up on the same recruit( I have done it 2 times).... I put myself in a situation where it is impossible to not favor one school over the other.
huh? not sure im following you here, freeg.

how do you just happen to show up recruiting against yourself... and how is that an advantage?
12/10/2009 9:05 AM
fregoe - I agree with you about the appearance issue (making sure you are not 'appearing' to cheat, even though you know you are not) - about why it might be harder too, like many of these debates there are two sides to the coin.

I would have no problem with a coach playing a d1,d2,d3 team in the same state, by the way - although I am pretty sure CS does not allow that - what I am a little less clear on is similtaneous a couple of d1 teams, even if spread out throughout the country.

Seble seems to be pretty strict in this area, so whatever he does is fine by me, I am glad it is his problem and not mine.
12/10/2009 9:17 AM
This can be a hot topic issue and there is a lot of gray area in interpretation of what is right and wrong. I will try to address them as I see them.

1. I do feel there is an advantage for the coach who has two teams in the same state and they do an FSS by one team. The information may not help both teams, but the expenditure from one team does help the team that doesn't spend their money for the same information.

2. Unless HD chimes in and says otherwise, my feeling is what they consider to be 'collusion' is when two coaches agree to gang up on another team's recruits. There is no question that this is wrong, and a lot of us have had it happen to us.

3. Having been an assistant baseball coach on the high school level, I know that a lot of information is shared between coaching staffs on a recruit should they have a working relationship with that other team. The information would be similar to that shared by an FSS report, and it is not considered unethical to do this in reality.

4. There is no rule against a coach going into a recruit's home and say derogatory remarks about another team/coaching staff. Some players buy into what is said and others look upon their doing that with a jaundiced eye. Yes, you need to sell your program, but it does not have to be at the expense of some other program.

5. I know for a fact that high school coaches will influence a player toward and away from certain programs depending on their 'political/social' contacts with the college program. That plays little direct part in the game outside of prestige. Yet, I was friends with the head track coach who wanted his son to attend Tennessee's track program, but instead, the boy went to Tulane that also had a quality track program, at that time. The coach did not like it as he had contacts at TN, but he was willing to accept his son's decision.

6. Agreeing not to go after a player is akin to college programs staying away from certain areas of the country. There are many reasons for their not recruiting in an area, and sometimes it is due to informal agreements with certain coaches. However, this is only an agreement between coaches or their staffs and does not preclude another school from coming into that area.

The point here is that you can agree not to go after a certain recruit, but that does not preclude another team from going after the player. If anyone doesn't think things like this happens in real life, then you need to revisit your thinking on this. It may not translate in the high school and college ranks straight to how HD works, but in similarity, there is no question that it does.

A good example of this is the high school in Florida that had sent a lot of players to the University of Florida. When Kiffin recruited one of their players, the high school in question began a war of words with TN over their coming to 'their' high school to recruit, and went as far to accuse Kiffin of recruiting violations on their athletic sports page. I would ask where was the 'collusion'? Was their collusion with the 'agreement' the high school staff had with the University of Florida regardless of the degree of formality.

The bottom line is do you wish to participate in some sort of information exchange when receiving a note from another coach. HD has already said they do not want information exchange on FSS, and on that point, there is no question. You certainly do not have to divulge whether you are going after a player, or if they are a primary or secondary recruit. It doesn't matter, and would certainly be a mistake to make any response if you have designs on the player yourself. Should you not be interested in the player, there is absolutely no safety net for the other team to go after a particular player as there could be many schools in a regional or national level that might have interest in that player.
12/10/2009 10:02 AM
georgie doesnt mess around. when he posts, he POSTS!



good stuff G. im not sure that all of the real life stuff translates into the HD world, but interesting, nonetheless.
12/10/2009 10:52 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By oldave on 12/10/2009
The only advatage I ever really saw was when I actually had SU and Florida show up on the same recruit( I have done it 2 times).... I put myself in a situation where it is impossible to not favor one school over the other.
huh? not sure im following you here, freeg.

how do you just happen to show up recruiting against yourself... and how is that an advantage?



when i recruit I dont look at their names per say and remember them. I look at numbers and than add them to wach list and set priority. So i set player A as a top priority for both Florida and SU. I think this player was in West Virginia or something. i recrutied him from both schools and than relalized my mistake when he was considering both Florida and SU. Now heres where my so called advatage might be or my moral issue. I have to chose which school he goes to now. Others might see a battle and stay away becasue of it. did I just set myself up for an unfair advantage unintentionally
12/10/2009 11:35 AM
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12/10/2009 11:37 AM
The thing that no one seems to be addressing is non-Wis Communication.

I personally know 2 people who play. I meet these people in person regularly. We could trade information and no one would ever know.

Also any e-mail (not wis sitemail) is not traceable by WIS.

Since anyone can cheat without proof, it almost make sense to say anyone can do anything, that way we are all on equal footing.

In the end I believe that when WIS makes a rule most people follow it, just because it is the right thing to do, but...
12/10/2009 11:44 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 12/10/2009George - you concluded "Should you not be interested in the player, there is absolutely no safety net for the other team to go after a particular player as there could be many schools in a regional or national level that might have interest in that player."

This is often not the case. At Colorado and Texas A&M, if I got a commitment from the top school in the area not to go after a player, there was almost 0 chance of somebody else seriously fighting me for them. The prestige gap was just too big. There are a lot of areas where there are only a couple schools at the top end, and information exchange among them can make it nearly impossible for the lower schools to crack into the top tier of players. Its already hard enough, some schools can basically pick the top X local players where X is the number of openings they have, and nobody as much as whimpers
I just dropped one of my Texas AM teams but I am keeping the other one. I find recruting at Texas AM to be by far the easiest place I have ever recruited. and before that it was Texas AM CC
12/10/2009 11:45 AM
whooop! gig 'em!
12/10/2009 1:09 PM
Hullabaloo, Caneck, Caneck

Hullabaloo, Caneck, Caneck

Good bye to texas university

So long to the orange and the white

Good luck to dear old Texas Aggies

They are the boys who show the real old fight

"the eyes of Texas are upon you"

That is the song they sing so well

Sounds Like Hell

So good bye to texas university

We're gonna beat you all to…

Chigaroogarem , Chigaroogarem

Rough, Tough, Real stuff, Texas A&M




Saw varsity's horns off

Saw varsity's horns off

Saw varsity's horns off

Short! A!




Varsity's horns are sawed off

Varsity's horns are sawed off

Varsity's horns are sawed off

Short! A!




WHOOP!
12/10/2009 1:14 PM
"varsity" is the cow mascot of texas university.
12/10/2009 1:15 PM
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what is fair play? Topic

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