How does 20 DEF do this? Topic

zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By mrpolo09 on 2/04/2010i believe it leads to more steals/blocks. the "hustle" stats.

in terms of "covering" a man, i believe that speed (on the perimeter) and athleticism (inside) are the key categories, like everyone has been sayin
Yup I totally agree with that.
2/4/2010 2:27 PM
schroedess26
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Well talking about the multiplier I have a questions.

In GD there was an excel file that tried to rate recruits. It would take certain skills and minus 30-40 points out of it to where it could be negative instead of positive.

Do any of you feel like DEF is like this?
Lets say at 40 is the min defense you want before they start to loose their edge of speed and ath. Does this exist do you think?
2/4/2010 2:40 PM
cburton23
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I don't see it as a negative multiplier, its a positive or a bonus. Given the choice between Speed/Ath and defense I will take the former. The defense is a bonus that will make speed and ath more effective.
2/4/2010 2:44 PM
tpob18
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 2/04/2010

Do you understand what the defensive rating even means? It isn't how good the player plays defense, it is the players willingness to play D.

To even begin to say that that should be the only thing taken into account for how good a player plays D is insane. A players physical abilities are much much more important. If you don't have the tools to stay with your man it really doesn't matter how much you want to guard him, you just can't.

If you use the defensive rating to tell you exactly how good a defender a player is you are not anywhere near being close to how good he is / can be.




If you don't have the tools to be a good defender why would you have a good D rating? If you do have the tools to be a good defender why would you not then have a good rating?

If a fast ath guy does not want to play defense why are so many so succesful in WIS? The D rating should have a different name. I always thought the d rating had more to do with how likely a guy is to foul and maybe a high d rated guy might average a half a steal or so per game. A meaningless rating overall.
2/4/2010 2:55 PM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By tpob18 on 2/04/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 2/04/2010

Do you understand what the defensive rating even means? It isn't how good the player plays defense, it is the players willingness to play D.

To even begin to say that that should be the only thing taken into account for how good a player plays D is insane. A players physical abilities are much much more important. If you don't have the tools to stay with your man it really doesn't matter how much you want to guard him, you just can't.

If you use the defensive rating to tell you exactly how good a defender a player is you are not anywhere near being close to how good he is / can be.




If you don't have the tools to be a good defender why would you have a good D rating? If you do have the tools to be a good defender why would you not then have a good rating?

If a fast ath guy does not want to play defense why are so many so succesful in WIS? The D rating should have a different name.
That seems to apply exactly to what you are saying.
2/4/2010 2:58 PM
tpob18
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Should a fast athletic guy be as successful defensively as a fast ath guy with a strong d rating? That is the problem with the rating. It just matters so little it is a false rating. They should give the d rating more juice. It would be the solution to supposed "press is magic" complainers and make the game better.
2/4/2010 3:04 PM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By tpob18 on 2/04/2010Should a fast athletic guy be as successful defensively as a fast ath guy with a strong d rating? That is the problem with the rating. It just matters so little it is a false rating. They should give the d rating more juice. It would be the solution to supposed "press is magic" complainers and make the game better
Exactly, you don't understand what the rating means and are taking the rating completely out of context in your argument here.
2/4/2010 3:05 PM
tpob18
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I am not arguing. It is a d rating and it should have more to do with how well a guy defends than how likely he is to foul. A fast athletic guy that bites on every ball fake would have trouble with a slower,smarter, skilled player, but in HD there is no penalty for having a poor d rating.

I don't have as much problem with d rating being so meaningless as I once did. But it is very misleading to call that rating a defense rating.
2/4/2010 3:19 PM
zhawks
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It does have a lot to do with defense. To say there is no penalty for a poor D rating is perposterous. To say that you think there should be more of a penalty for it, sure you can argue that.
2/4/2010 3:26 PM
tpob18
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I am not trying to argue I am trying to understand you. Let me rephrase and ask you.

Other than how likely a player is to foul and maybe an extra half a steal or so per game how does the d rating help?

For a little background on why I think the d rating is somewhat meaningless. see the following

I had the highest rated defensive team in a d3 world along with above average speed and ath about 4 out of six seasons in d3 Naismith. The teams were good on steals and TOs but gave up alarming shooting %'s and points per game. We were in man then switched to FCP during reload seasons. Two of teams made the final 4 so they were somewhat successful but the d rating was not the key. There was another team in my league that was 5-10 more ath and 30-40 points lower on d rating but had far better D numbers and won a couple of NTs.
2/4/2010 3:48 PM
emy1013
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Quote: Originally Posted By fussyd on 2/04/2010Welcome to HD, where defensive ratings count for virtually nothing
2/4/2010 3:55 PM
emy1013
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 2/04/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By schroedess26 on 2/04/2010

Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 2/04/2010

Do you understand what the defensive rating even means? It isn't how good the player plays defense, it is the players willingness to play D.

To even begin to say that that should be the only thing taken into account for how good a player plays D is insane. A players physical abilities are much much more important. If you don't have the tools to stay with your man it really doesn't matter how much you want to guard him, you just can't.

If you use the defensive rating to tell you exactly how good a defender a player is you are not anywhere near being close to how good he is / can be.

1.) I gotta say I never said its the only thing that should be taken into account. 60 Spd and 60 Ath and 99 Def should be better at defense than 99 Spd and 60 Ath and 20 Def, how does speed when according to you "doesn't want to make him play defense" mean he can guard anyone than? You just said he doesn't want to play defense. Completely disagree. Why in the world you think a guy that has 60 speed can guard someone with 99 speed is beyond me. He would have a very realy chance of getting burned any possession.

2.) I am saying a 20 DEF should never stay with basically anyone, no matter his physical talents, not a 60 vs 90 but 20 DEF here. Some of the NBA Super Stars absolutely suck on Defense, how could you ever rate these in HD? They just sit there and watch people run by the them, they know what they should do they just don't do it. This fall into their want to play Def. Welcome to college basketball, we aren't playing NBA Dynasty.

3.) I gotta say I never have played a game with such weird ratings as HD. In this game DEF means nothing, how does this make sense? Basically your saying if the guy is fast and ath he could have 1 def and shut down his man? DEF does not mean nothing. If you believe it means nothing then you don't understand the rating.

I read the what defense means from WIS:
Defense (def): like rebounding, defense refers to a player's defensive fundamentals and their desire to play defense. Again, knowledge of the fundamentals and having the desire are great, but you also need the athleticism and speed to be a great defender. You can have all the fundamentals in the world you want, if you don't have the talent to use them they are worthless.

So in other words he doesn't have the desire and he doesn't have the fundamentals either. Which part of that wouldn't make him a good defender? I know the guys fast, but if he doesn't want to use it, and he doesn't know how to guard a guy he's doomed to be a bad defender....



And if you don't have the desire to play defense, then all of your talents are wasted. And if you don't know the fundamentals, then you're basically a track star playing basketball who should be committing tons of fouls on a nightly basis.

Having SPD/ATH helps considerably, but by WIS' own definition, having SPD/ATH with a pisspoor DEF rating should result in the defender getting lit up as his opponent drives by him (general apathy towards defense in general), or having the defender sitting on the bench in foul trouble (hackfest due to lack of fundamentals).

Until WIS fixes the DEF rating to actually give it some teeth, I will always consider this a major glitch in the game. And Zack, I DO know what I'm talking about. Have a nice day all.............
2/4/2010 4:09 PM
kmasonbx
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I think the additional fouls that emy mentions is what should occur when players have low D ratings. I don't think that a player with superior ath/sp should be getting beat off the dribble by somebody lacking in those areas. However his poor fundamentals would lead to more fouls.
2/4/2010 4:17 PM
tpob18
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But then shouldn't a fast, ath and exceptional fundamental guy be an outstanding defender? Don't we lack that in HD?

2/4/2010 4:30 PM
emy1013
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Quote: Originally Posted By tpob18 on 2/04/2010
But then shouldn't a fast, ath and exceptional fundamental guy be an outstanding defender? Don't we lack that in HD?





Most definitely.
2/4/2010 6:51 PM
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