Can Winning Matter, Please? Topic

Quote: Originally Posted By joco45215 on 5/11/2010Oh can we call this the joco rule since peopel are drawing all this attention to them self? seriously.....I should just start all my freshman and walk ons for this game maybe some people would be happy


Nothing personal against you, and I wish you good luck in your PT game, its not like you cheated or anything.



Just taht a 9 - 19 team doesn't belong in postseason play.



5/11/2010 8:04 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By joco45215 on 5/11/2010Oh can we call this the joco rule since peopel are drawing all this attention to them self? seriously.....I should just start all my freshman and walk ons for this game maybe some people would be happy
Dude, go gangbusters on everyone and win the thing, seriously. Again I'm/we're raging against the system and not you. If I made it at 9-19 I'd be saying that its crap. Do your best, you have a great team, and perform to your potential. Take care.
5/11/2010 8:52 PM
Yeah not mad at the playa, just the game :)
5/11/2010 11:10 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 5/11/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 5/11/2010

Coppin St 23-6 58 RPI 205 SOS

Denver 22-7 50 RPI 125 SOS

N. Iowa 22-7 53 RPI 131 SOS

Not sure if there are others.




How can you even contend that Syracuse with a 15-12 record and a 52 RPI has any business getting into the tournament over any of the above mentioned teams? You must be basing it on SOS which is insane that you'd judge SOS over Wins and Losses, specifically when the RPIs are almost all the same.
mmt, I think it depends if those other schools beat some high quality teams. If they did, I'm OK w. them getting in. If not, they have no business being in the NT.
5/11/2010 11:12 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 5/11/2010Coppin St did not PLAY one team with an RPI under 105. Quality schedule
Case in point ... that team has no business getting an at-large bid to the NT. None whatsoever.
5/11/2010 11:13 PM
And yes, I totally agree with colonels here, ridiculous that a 9-win team gets a bid.

There is a real flaw in the PIT conference that it basically goes strictly on rpi. Definitely needs to be fixed.

I don't think the NT has anything even remotely that bad. The system isn't perfect, but it's not totally broken like the PIT in this example.

(colonels, it's worth a ticket imo.)
5/11/2010 11:16 PM
i think the new engine is supposed to address the ranking/seeding issue to some extent, i would just wait and see how it does.

i do agree rpi is overvalued in the pit, but so often its under valued by good teams in top conferences. my 22 win, 2 rpi conf mate just got a 3 seed, and that is like better than plenty he has gotten recently. he had like an 8 seed with a 6 or 8 rpi or something, and got like an 11 on a 16 rpi. maybe that is not exact but there were like 3-4 seasons close to that bad in the last 10.

anyway, my point is, if wins are overrated to rpi in the NT seeding, i dont think its so bad the reverse is true in the PIT, which is supposed to catch teams who miss out on the NT...
5/12/2010 12:02 AM
Uhhhh, anyone who is worried about teams not making the PI should be more concerned with improving their own team and getting to the NT than complaining.

However, no team with less than 10 wins should make the postseason IMO.
5/12/2010 12:50 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By hitman1979 on 5/11/2010
Why reward teams for losing, even if it's to good teams? Because they tried hard?
Because it makes about as much sense as rewarding a team for scheduling pansies. While I agree that a 9-19 team isn't worthy regarless, the SOS should serve as some sort of smell test for selection or seeding (since there is not selection committee).

And for the record, it is very easy for one to get a sub-50 RPI with a SOS over 100, the NT field is littered with them and they usually get over-seeded. I for one would always seed a 16 win team in a power conference over a 20 win team in a one bid with comparable RPI's. Who you play matters.
5/12/2010 3:36 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/11/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 5/11/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 5/11/2010

Coppin St 23-6 58 RPI 205 SOS

Denver 22-7 50 RPI 125 SOS

N. Iowa 22-7 53 RPI 131 SOS

Not sure if there are others.




How can you even contend that Syracuse with a 15-12 record and a 52 RPI has any business getting into the tournament over any of the above mentioned teams? You must be basing it on SOS which is insane that you'd judge SOS over Wins and Losses, specifically when the RPIs are almost all the same.
mmt, I think it depends if those other schools beat some high quality teams. If they did, I'm OK w. them getting in. If not, they have no business being in the NT.
Ok...since this dicussion is clearly continuing both here and on the CC in the Big East, I'll say a couply of things:

1) My comments on this subject were in no way trying to justify how any of those teams listed by Sully somehow deserved NT spots; I was speaking specifically to the comparrison made by Sully, that the Cuse should have somehow got in above those teams. Perhaps upon closer inspection none of those teams (including the Cuse) belong in the NT;

2) (This is more towards a comment made by Davey Boy in the CC); What my record is/was in no way has any bearing as to whether I can comment on your schedule or give an opinion as to whether a 15-12 team belongs in the NT. The fact you beat my Manhattan sqaud or that my SOS sucks make ZIPPO difference...in fact I got an auto bid for winning my CT and probably dont get in either without doing so. I never understand this arguement in a conversation. Husband to Wife - You know we really spend to much on eating out. Wife to Husband - Well, I looked at the receipts from your last marriage and you are out twice as much. What the heck does the previous spending have to do with the current? Anyhow I digress.

3) There are a multitude of factors which go into determining a NT spot; RPI gives a better indication of the quality of season as a hole as it incorporates both W/Ls and SOS. My main point is, in a situation where schools have similar RPIs Ws not SOS should be the determining factor. Its insane to suggest otherwise. Again, thats not to say that a team with a 29-0 regular season but 120 RPI should get in (auto bid aside) BUT when comparing two teams whose RPIs are nearly identical suggesting that the SOS should somehow be the tiebreaker when the teams are separated by 10 wins is insane. Specifically when 11 of the 15 wins came against teams with 115+ RPI...SOS is meaningless and will always be low when playing in a top tier conference. The fact is the school in question school managed a 4-11 record v. sub 100 RPI teams. You want realism? This team wouldnt even be on the bubble in reality.
5/12/2010 9:15 AM
My point is that quality wins need to be accounted for, not just the total number of wins. Maybe Syracuse is not the best example but a couple of those teams really have no business in the NT with an at-large.

As for your #3 above, I think quality wins should be the tie-breaker not just wins. It is somewhat easy to manipulate RPI just by getting a lot of wins. I think you need to play and beat some good teams.
5/12/2010 9:50 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 5/12/2010
My point is that quality wins need to be accounted for, not just the total number of wins. Maybe Syracuse is not the best example but a couple of those teams really have no business in the NT with an at-large.

As for your #3 above, I think quality wins should be the tie-breaker not just wins. It is somewhat easy to manipulate RPI just by getting a lot of wins. I think you need to play and beat some good teams.



Again, did I say those team should get in? No. I said if you want to compare them to Syaracuse they have a better leg to stand on. As I said in your CC SOS doesnt mean anything outside of seeding and tiebreaker between teams with similar records.

SOS is automatically manipulated by virtue of conference. Its why a team with only 8 wins can have a top 20 or top 10 SOS. Its pretty meaningless if your not winning games.

And no in real life SOS is the least looked at factor. RPI is #1 Wins #2 how you ended the season #3. That pretty much the standard used by WIS. UConn was 17-15 last season with the #4 SOS and werent even considered for an NT spot. At a minimum Big 6 schools typically need 17+ wins to be considered. Thats just the reality.
5/12/2010 9:54 AM
Quality wins, bad losses, etc...all those things go into the selection committee. I dont think overall wins is the #1 factor. I also do not think SOS is the #1 factor, I just said it is a factor.
5/12/2010 10:01 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 5/12/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 5/12/2010

My point is that quality wins need to be accounted for, not just the total number of wins. Maybe Syracuse is not the best example but a couple of those teams really have no business in the NT with an at-large.

As for your #3 above, I think quality wins should be the tie-breaker not just wins. It is somewhat easy to manipulate RPI just by getting a lot of wins. I think you need to play and beat some good teams.




Again, did I say those team should get in? No. I said if you want to compare them to Syaracuse they have a better leg to stand on. As I said in your CC SOS doesnt mean anything outside of seeding and tiebreaker between teams with similar records.

SOS is automatically manipulated by virtue of conference. Its why a team with only 8 wins can have a top 20 or top 10 SOS. Its pretty meaningless if your not winning games.

And no in real life SOS is the least looked at factor. RPI is #1 Wins #2 how you ended the season #3. That pretty much the standard used by WIS. UConn was 17-15 last season with the #4 SOS and werent even considered for an NT spot. At a minimum Big 6 schools typically need 17+ wins to be considered. Thats just the reality.
Why didnt Virginia Tech make it? They had 23 wins in a major conference.
5/12/2010 10:09 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 5/12/2010
Quality wins, bad losses, etc...all those things go into the selection committee. I dont think overall wins is the #1 factor. I also do not think SOS is the #1 factor, I just said it is a factor.
Wins is the second thing looked at RPI is one...its why a team can have 8 wins and it will automatically remove them from consideration...meaning all your factors wont even be considered. A team can have 23 wins...like Virginia Tech...and this will then allow the committe to consider other factors like the ones mentioned...V-Tech was on the bubble because of their 23 wins WHICH AGAIN ARE NOT THE ONLY FACTOR...Their RPI was borderline and they had a resume comprable to other bubble teams...What was used as the TIEBREAKER? Their 300+ nonconference SOS which is a joke. http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/11000/virginia-tech-learns-its-lesson

UConn despite its #4 SOS...wasnt even considered because 17-15 teams dont make the NT...the SC doesnt use your imaginary standard of, well, if they played the #57 SOS they wouldve won 20 games so we should let them in...
5/12/2010 10:32 AM
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Can Winning Matter, Please? Topic

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