5/27 update - Page 3 - Hoops Dynasty

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Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 5/28/2010Honestly, I'm dumbfounded that there were vets out there who didn't expect that there would be tweaks after the roll-out. I'm not saying that makes it perfect or even right, but I'm really thrown by any vet who is surprised by it ... as I tell people all the time at work, it's all about managing expectations. (Not to say that we should expect little, only that the expectations should be pragmatic and attuned to reality ... my expectations for what the engine will look like after a month or two was always much higher than what it would look like after a day or two.)

I've been surprised the crowd has been as tolerant as they have so far, it seemed to me the FSS change caused near as much intolerance on the boards, and was truly a tweak, what we are dealing with right now is the 'kitchen sink'.

unfortunately, one thing I am pretty sure is different between now and two years ago or four years ago, is the vet HD community is somewhat apathetic, versus how passionate folks were then

to regain the passion will almost surely require new coaches, and to get new coaches, the product must be improved. I am pretty certain that in order to improve the product, the engine needed to be re-written, so here we are.

no big deal really - has to be this way - or maybe I too have just grown that apathetic - LOL

5/28/2010 9:31 AM

sully712

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With all these changes, I do not see how current customers do not get more than a $5 credit.

5/28/2010 9:38 AM

mmt0315

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Quote: Originally Posted By sully712 on 5/28/2010With all these changes, I do not see how current customers do not get more than a $5 credit

Oh, my bad I forgot they arbitrarily gave each of us a $5.00 credit which based on that forum we should be on our knees and thanking them for...Who cares that some people have 10 teams while others have 1 but everyone was given the same Five-Bucks OR that we had an entire WEEK to use it...Although in hindsight it was enough time for me to realize I wont be...

I feel like a tool for my constant faith and defense of WIS.

5/28/2010 9:42 AM

dalter

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Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 5/28/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/28/2010

Honestly, I'm dumbfounded that there were vets out there who didn't expect that there would be tweaks after the roll-out. I'm not saying that makes it perfect or even right, but I'm really thrown by any vet who is surprised by it ... as I tell people all the time at work, it's all about managing expectations.

(Not to say that we should expect little, only that the expectations should be pragmatic and attuned to reality ... my expectations for what the engine will look like after a month or two was always much higher than what it would look like after a day or two.)

Thats what you call this? Youre quickly losing credibility; a team having 7-8 players fouling out is not tweaks. Players entering a 2nd half at "tired" is not tweaks. Completely killing a defense (whether people think it should exist in the first place is another question as if its an option it should work in line with other defenses) is not tweaks. This is an engine that shouldnt be rolled out; it shouldnt require such dramatic changes within days of being released; it should not require the entire world being paused because there are so many issues with the engine. And worst of all we should not be their guine pigs forced to pay to test the product. They should be ashamed for how this has been handled.

This started with beta testing. There was no communication and games wouldnt be simmed for weeks; I'd log in for days on end and nothing; suddenly 10 games were simmed in a day with no notice. Of course people lost interest and didnt participate. Your "dumbfounded"? Im dumbfounded that you cant see these things.

Easy. Of course I see them. You know that I was a loud voice in the beta test, and most of that was me being critical. ("Most" might be an understatement, lol.)

I agree that they shouldn't have rolled out the engine when they did. But if they get it under control in relatively short order -- and I'm starting to develop a cautious optimism that they will -- then I will be OK. If we're still having these conversations all summer, that's where they'll really lose me.

I don't disagree with anything you said about the beta not being well run, etc. But I'm encouraged by seble's willingness and ability to make the necessary tweaks to improve. We literally played 1-2 regular season games in a couple of worlds before that was done, so the damage hardly qualifies as catastrophic, or anything close.

As much as anything, I want to see the game grow and improve, and a constant negative tone in the forums is anathema to that sort of progress. That is not to say that I won't be critical -- anyone who's been around knows that couldn't be further from the truth -- only that right now my focus on being constructive rather than negative. (That's not to say that your criticisms aren't valid, because I largely agree and believe they are.)

Hope that clarifies where I'm coming from.

5/28/2010 9:45 AM

kelby_03

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Nice post OR. Hadn't thought about it much but the vets have definitely become apathetic. I know I sure have.

A few years ago if any minor thing happened there would be a bunch of threads about it or at least 1 big thread that would be 10 pages long in 1 day. There were also numerous other long threads about people's ideas they were trying, areas coaches would like improved and many random interesting HD topics. Now nobody seems to care that much to have a decent discussion. When new coaches ask questions they don't get much response and rarely spark a debate. The community is very apathetic...

5/28/2010 9:46 AM

cornfused

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Game one with the reduced number of fouls: 51 total fouls. Of course, it was press vs. press and my team IQs are godawful, but still, 51 total fouls.

5/28/2010 9:58 AM

mmt0315

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Dalt I hear you but herein lies the problem (I didnt copy/paste your post because I feel an OlDavey post about to come outta me):

1) Beta test - run terribly; I actually should have been run exactly how the current worlds are being run. Two game a day world forums discover problems; tweaks are made etc; if major changes needed to be made say "ok guys were taking a month off between seasons and well try again in season 2" remember they gave us 5 seasons each at the start which would make you think its how it was going to be handled. Whatever EPIC fail.

Keep in mind I was fine with the old engine but understood the majority wanted changes so be it; if thats good for the game great;

2) Roll out new engine to two worlds. Immediately after the first exhibition game (keep in mind Im not in either of those worlds so my memory might be misremembering things) there were so many problems that the games were rolled back as though they didnt happen; they also pushed back the start date of these worlds. Now, whether it was right to move forward generally, there was obviously something screwed up yet they decided that as the other worlds rolled over the engine would be implemented there as well. This despite people begging them to just leave it in the two they already screwed up and let the rest of us play the old engine until they figured it out. Its not like anyone was clamoring for the new engine at this point anyhow.

Whatever, went along with it for the good of the game;

3) Give us a week to use a $5.00 credit, which isnt even good for 1 season, this was insulting but I laughed it off as they've never been good with customer service but atleast they tried;

4) Tark rolls over, Im seeing insane results 8 players fouling out, 60+ FT attempts and the press (the defense I run) is literally ineffective. Fine, I get it, they were talking about getting rid of it anyhow. Question is why not give us warning and simply scrap it; 2) If you are going to provide it as an option why isnt it working like other defenses. WIS takes the position that this is more inline with the way it should work; IQs, fatigue, etc...Again, not happy but good for the game...I'll adjust...change my practice plan on each and every team so that while this season might be a waste the future seasons wont.

5) Straw that breaks the camels back; May 27th update. This shows they are indecisive, there is no way to adjust to the new engine as they'll keep making changes which just throw off our adjustments; this is now a guessing game and they disrespect their users and our treating us like test subject which had they just run the stupid beta test properly this wouldnt have happened. They rushed this BS out, despite the super majority of the users saying, "take your time, get it right, we'd rather wait then go through the potential disaster again." I mean think about it, you didnt see any threads where people were ****** or screaming for the release. Everyone had Seble's back and was waiting. BUT nope they needed to rush it out.

This is why Im dumbfounded that you dont get it my man. You and the people like you who have been here far longer then me should be screaming at the top of your lungs and not be so apathetic as OR so aptly put it.

5/28/2010 10:05 AM

hitman1979

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Really. Did anyone not see this coming?

5/28/2010 10:08 AM

jskenner

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The new engine should not have been released until only minor tweaks remained. If the need for major tweaks, such as those involved so far, can be identified with paying-customer worlds, they could have and should have been identified within the beta world, which could have been run and run and run and run (and run) until no such major needs existed.

That being said, it was released, and any of us interested in making it work longterm have as our only option to stick with it and do our best to get seble the info we think he needs to get it right asap. I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said. Just weighing in.

And I was apathetic with the Beta (signed up, but did not actively participate at all). This was mainly due to the suspicion that my voice would be lost in the woods, as the WIS staff pretty much did what they were going to do in any case. It looks like that's what happened, even though great vets like dalter and OR and many others tried their best to get WIS to get it right in the beta, but I didn't do my part, and so my opinions are or less weight now.

Still, if anyone asks, I'll have a ready opinion.

5/28/2010 10:16 AM

jskenner

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And none of my teams have experienced the new engine fiasco. My perspective may be very different once that starts. My fingers are firmly crossed.

5/28/2010 10:19 AM

isack24

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51 doesn't seem odd to me when it's press vs. press and bad IQs are involved.

It does concern me that two teams can press and we've got people at fresh 28 minutes into the game, if I read that right. That would pretty much make the press unstoppable with 8 good players, and that seems ludicrous to me.

5/28/2010 10:22 AM

wisefella99

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Quote: Originally posted by kelby_03 on 5/28/2010Nice post OR. Hadn't thought about it much but the vets have definitely become apathetic. I know I sure have.A few years ago if any minor thing happened there would be a bunch of threads about it or at least 1 big thread that would be 10 pages long in 1 day. There were also numerous other long threads about people's ideas they were trying, areas coaches would like improved and many random interesting HD topics. Now nobody seems to care that much to have a decent discussion. When new coaches ask questions they don't get much response and rarely spark a debate. The community is very apathetic...

All true, except the thread could be close to 10 pages long in a few hours.

5/28/2010 10:23 AM

antonsirius

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mmt, nothing that happens in a couple of games (short of a catastrophic server crash that wipes everything out and the data can't be recovered) can be classified as a disaster. Nothing.

Not even your 0-3 start in Tark, with a team that doesn't have the STA to play full press (much less press with an uptempo offense, as you've done in two of those three games) under the new engine.

Are we essentially doing a live beta test? Sure. That's been true of HD since season 1, and anyone who expected anything different was, frankly, delusional. That's just how WIS runs things.

Is it better or worse that they can dive in and adjust (since you don't seem to like the 't' word) things very quickly in response to what they see going on, rather than the old system of "yes we know there's a problem, it might get changed in a season or two?" I can't see how the current set-up could possibly be worse than that.

5/28/2010 10:24 AM

sully712

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I guess people dont mind paying to beta test the program for them. I mean, why do they need staff working on the program when we are paying to do the work!

I would just like to see a little more than a $5 credit. Thats the least they could do.

5/28/2010 10:29 AM

dalter

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Quote: Originally Posted By mmt0315 on 5/28/2010

Dalt I hear you but herein lies the problem (I didnt copy/paste your post because I feel an OlDavey post about to come outta me):

1) Beta test - run terribly; I actually should have been run exactly how the current worlds are being run. Two game a day world forums discover problems; tweaks are made etc; if major changes needed to be made say "ok guys were taking a month off between seasons and well try again in season 2" remember they gave us 5 seasons each at the start which would make you think its how it was going to be handled. Whatever EPIC fail.

Agreed.

Keep in mind I was fine with the old engine but understood the majority wanted changes so be it; if thats good for the game great;

The old engine was awful. Broken, probably irreparably so. Now, we had gotten used to it so some of the ridiculous foibles grew to be largely overlooked. And coaches adjusted their gameplanning accordingly. And I'm saying this as one of the most successful coaches under the old engine, so from a selfish perspective it would've been great for me had they kept it around.

2) Roll out new engine to two worlds. Immediately after the first exhibition game (keep in mind Im not in either of those worlds so my memory might be misremembering things) there were so many problems that the games were rolled back as though they didnt happen; they also pushed back the start date of these worlds. Now, whether it was right to move forward generally, there was obviously something screwed up yet they decided that as the other worlds rolled over the engine would be implemented there as well. This despite people begging them to just leave it in the two they already screwed up and let the rest of us play the old engine until they figured it out. Its not like anyone was clamoring for the new engine at this point anyhow.

Whatever, went along with it for the good of the game;

Mostly agreed. Pretty obvious it shouldn't have been rolled out. I can think of maybe two people who would disagree.

3) Give us a week to use a $5.00 credit, which isnt even good for 1 season, this was insulting but I laughed it off as they've never been good with customer service but atleast they tried;

The one-week thing wasn't cool, agreed.

4) Tark rolls over, Im seeing insane results 8 players fouling out, 60+ FT attempts and the press (the defense I run) is literally ineffective. Fine, I get it, they were talking about getting rid of it anyhow. Question is why not give us warning and simply scrap it; 2) If you are going to provide it as an option why isnt it working like other defenses. WIS takes the position that this is more inline with the way it should work; IQs, fatigue, etc...Again, not happy but good for the game...I'll adjust...change my practice plan on each and every team so that while this season might be a waste the future seasons wont.

5) Straw that breaks the camels back; May 27th update. This shows they are indecisive, there is no way to adjust to the new engine as they'll keep making changes which just throw off our adjustments;

Totally disagreed. This doesn't show indecisiveness; it shows a willingness to listen to coaches, to be proactive about fixing what is broken, and to be nimble enough to do it quickly. This is the one true positive going.

this is now a guessing game and they disrespect their users and our treating us like test subject which had they just run the stupid beta test properly this wouldnt have happened. They rushed this BS out, despite the super majority of the users saying, "take your time, get it right, we'd rather wait then go through the potential disaster again." I mean think about it, you didnt see any threads where people were ****** or screaming for the release. Everyone had Seble's back and was waiting. BUT nope they needed to rush it out.

This is why Im dumbfounded that you dont get it my man. You and the people like you who have been here far longer then me should be screaming at the top of your lungs and not be so apathetic as OR so aptly put it.

Again, to say I don't get it is to completely ignore my previous post and whole persona here. Give me at least a smidgen of credit here. I get it. I agree that the beta was botched and they rolled it out too early.

My goal is to help fix things. Period.

5/28/2010 10:32 AM

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