Trade Vetoed - Page 3 - Hardball Dynasty

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Please note: The following post is excessively long in the hope that MikeT will skip it.

Once upon a time I was thrown out of Coop for accepting a Season 9 trade where I was offered Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Kevin Chang in return for a scrub and $2M. It was right after FA signings and I had some spare cash w/o much to spend it on. Plus I had a thin rotation so I went for it and accepted the deal to provide a little pitching depth for a mediocre team. The guy's ratings seemed ML legitimate to me and he projected to continue developing a bit. Just as important to me, he was coming off a 185 IP season with an ERA of 4.04. I give a lot of credit to a player's actual stats once they get to the Majors. After all, ratings are nice, but I pay for actual stats.

Believe it or not, when the first protests came in, I thought that they were upset that I was ripping off the other owner with a low cash offer. But no, the concensus was that I was gifting a colleague with $2M in return for a piece of crud. Chang was a "replacement level player" and I was colluding with the other owner. Trade was vetoed; I was booted (but curiously not the owner that offered the trade); and that season Chang posted a 4.15 ERA in 108 IP. In S10 he posted a 3.51 ERA in 180+ IP. After that he admittedly regressed, but knowing what I know about his first two seasons after the veto, I'd make the trade again if I had the chance.

Ever since then, I've realized that I have a markedly different definition/impression of "replacement level pitching" than the loud minority (as opposed ot silent majority) of HBD. Granted, Coop was (and still is) pitching heavy. But Chang put together three better than league average seasons in a row. Replacement level pitching is by definition less, even significantly less, than average.

So what is average?

I just randomly checked league ERAs in about 10% of The Worlds in HBD (I tried to eliminate selection bias by starting with the first on the list and then checking every ten Worlds). Throwing out the two major outliers (Coop's current ERA is 4.06 and it wasn't in the random sample anyway, and Robinson which had an ERA of 5.20), the sample Worlds ranged from 4.36 to 4.90+, for the most part clustering in the 4.45 - 4.60 range.

So the short answer after the long post is that in a "typical HBD World", pitchers that have a proven track record of an ERA of 4.50 or lower are average or better, and definitely not replacement level. Bearing in mind that there tend to be more below average ML players than above average (because the better players can be expected to get the most playing time) there will still be plenty of less than average, but better than replacement players, with higher ERAs. I would expect that typical HBD replacement level is probably around 5.00 or so.

Having said all that, I don't even know which World booger is in, so if it has pitching like Coop, then yes, his duo are about replacement level. But that's freakin' unlikely.

As it is, the RP's current ratings would appear to indicate that he was a real reach as #17 in the draft. I'd have no problem approving such a deal, and in fact would applaud a noob for realizing that 300 IP of league average or better starting pitching can be worth more than a guy who apparently projects as a very good but not great RP.

3/3/2011 2:40 PM (edited)

MikeT23

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I stopped reading here because you fabricated some facts at this point:

Once upon a time I was thrown out of Coop for accepting a Season 9 trade where I was offered Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Kevin Chang in return for a scrub and $2M.

You weren't "thrown out". Your deal was vetoed because that's how it works in Coop. No selling of players. After about 80-90 trade chats, where I was rather polite in explaining the rule and you repeatedly objected to it, it was suggested that maybe Coop wasn't the world for you. You apparently agreed as you left willingly at season's end.

If you're going to tell a story, especially one that's so long-winded, start by telling the truth.

3/3/2011 2:50 PM

carnivore

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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2011 2:50:00 PM (view original):
I stopped reading here because you fabricated some facts at this point:

Once upon a time I was thrown out of Coop for accepting a Season 9 trade where I was offered Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Kevin Chang in return for a scrub and $2M.

You weren't "thrown out". Your deal was vetoed because that's how it works in Coop. No selling of players. After about 80-90 trade chats, where I was rather polite in explaining the rule and you repeatedly objected to it, it was suggested that maybe Coop wasn't the world for you. You apparently agreed as you left willingly at season's end.

If you're going to tell a story, especially one that's so long-winded, start by telling the truth.

If you're going to lie, do a better job.

You tried to get me to leave immediately but I refused. You then declared in the forum and in private chat that you wouldn't let me back. At the end of the season I asked you if you'd reconsider, but you refused.

If you're too senile to remember, ask in Coop's forum. I'm sure that they'll all remember better than you.

3/3/2011 2:58 PM (edited)

tecwrg

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I'll throw in a couple of other facts.

I don't remember carnivore being "thrown out" of Coop. Whatever happened between him and Mike in trade chat never made it to the world chat, as far as I can remember. All I knew was that he didn't come back the following season.

I'll also confirm the long-standing Coop policy against buying players, which admittedly is what carnivore attempted to do.

On to the player in question: yes, in season 8 he had a 4.04 ERA in 185 IP, which was below world average (4.28). But he also had a .289 OAV and a 1.58 WHIP in that season, which were both well above world average for S8 (.263 and 1.37, respectively). So in that regard, Chang was much closer to "replacement player value" than carnivore would like to admit.

3/3/2011 2:58 PM

MikeT23

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I probably asked you to leave when you kept on and on about the rule that had been in place for 8 seasons. I do recall saying "This isn't a debate. It's a rule and it will be a rule as long as I'm commish." I don't recall any public or private declarations of your departure. Although, quite honestly, if I "suggested" that Coop might not be for you, I wouldn't be surprised if I also told you that you wouldn't be returning. Either way, it wasn't as big of a deal to me as it was to you.

That aside, your deal wasn't vetoed because of the caliber of player Chang was. It was vetoed because you bought him. Your words "a scrub and $2M" describes it. At that point, you asked why. And, over the course of how ever many days, I explained you couldn't buy a player. And you objected. I said "Not a debate, a rule." And, at some point, it was decided that Coop wasn't for you.

3/3/2011 3:00 PM

carnivore

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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2011 3:00:00 PM (view original):
I probably asked you to leave when you kept on and on about the rule that had been in place for 8 seasons. I do recall saying "This isn't a debate. It's a rule and it will be a rule as long as I'm commish." I don't recall any public or private declarations of your departure. Although, quite honestly, if I "suggested" that Coop might not be for you, I wouldn't be surprised if I also told you that you wouldn't be returning. Either way, it wasn't as big of a deal to me as it was to you.

That aside, your deal wasn't vetoed because of the caliber of player Chang was. It was vetoed because you bought him. Your words "a scrub and $2M" describes it. At that point, you asked why. And, over the course of how ever many days, I explained you couldn't buy a player. And you objected. I said "Not a debate, a rule." And, at some point, it was decided that Coop wasn't for you.

"I probably asked you to leave when you kept on and on about the rule that had been in place for 8 seasons."

Ladies and Gentlemen, that's MikeSpeak for "Yeah, well, maybe I did throw you out."

3/3/2011 3:02 PM

MikeT23

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There you go. I trust tec's memory. I don't remember any grand public declaration either. I don't even remember a private one. I do recall a suggestion. Depending on how the "suggestion" was taken, it could have gone in any number of directions after that.

3/3/2011 3:03 PM

MikeT23

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Asking someone to leave and throwing them out are two completely different things.

3/3/2011 3:04 PM

MikeT23

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Here you go:

MikeT23

Charge

3/3/2011 3:05 PM

Anyone remember any details to carnivore's departure after season 9? Like some grand declaration that I'd be throwing him out?

You can check in for the results or I'll post them for you.

3/3/2011 3:07 PM

carnivore

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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2011 3:03:00 PM (view original):
There you go. I trust tec's memory. I don't remember any grand public declaration either. I don't even remember a private one. I do recall a suggestion. Depending on how the "suggestion" was taken, it could have gone in any number of directions after that.

Ask Brisque about it. He's probably still laughing about the way everyone ganged up on me and ignored the guy who actually instigated the trade.

Ask mitch about it. He told me at the time that I should just ignore it because you'd forget about by the end of the season.

Ask Griv about it. I gave him grief about it later because I expected that he would stick up for me based on our shared past in NQ.

Ask rockindock about it. He was was one of the few that were civil to me about it in Trade Chat.

Ask trop and mrdanielx about it. IIRC they chortled with glee about the whole situation. Amazing how you 3 all came together on that one issue.

3/3/2011 4:21 PM (edited)

carnivore

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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2011 3:04:00 PM (view original):
Asking someone to leave and throwing them out are two completely different things.

Yup. They are. But telling someone that you'll have Support remove them if they re-up is called throwing out, not asking to leave.

3/3/2011 3:12 PM

MikeT23

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I asked in the world chat.

However, if I were you, I'd let it go. It was two calendar years ago. I'd forgotten the trade in question, just that you asked me repeatedly to explain the cash/salary rule and the reasons behind it. Despite explaining it over and over again, you kept objecting. I thought, up until the very end, that we were pretty civil. Then a few owners asked me what was going on with you. I assumed, at that point, that you were TC anyone and everyone about it in hopes of, well, I don't know what you hoped would happen.

3/3/2011 3:14 PM

Braziman

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He was waiting for a miracle. Specifically, of the kind we were discussing over in your thread the other day.

3/3/2011 3:23 PM

MikeT23

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World rules are world rules. They're nothing like religion. Rules are black and white. Religion is a jumbled mess of grays depending on who you ask.

Apples and oranges, gramps.

3/3/2011 3:26 PM

carnivore

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Posted by MikeT23 on 3/3/2011 3:14:00 PM (view original):
I asked in the world chat.

However, if I were you, I'd let it go. It was two calendar years ago. I'd forgotten the trade in question, just that you asked me repeatedly to explain the cash/salary rule and the reasons behind it. Despite explaining it over and over again, you kept objecting. I thought, up until the very end, that we were pretty civil. Then a few owners asked me what was going on with you. I assumed, at that point, that you were TC anyone and everyone about it in hopes of, well, I don't know what you hoped would happen.

I let it go long ago, although I admit that I had fun keeping tabs on Chang for the first couple of seasons.

I'm not at all surprised that you'd forgotten about the trade and how specifically you reacted - you can be an incredible *** at times, but you don't seem to hold grudges or even genuinely dislike the people that you fight with. The TC exchange that we had was indeed civil, but even then you didn't understand that I was really truly trying to understand the aversion to cash deals - not trying to get rules changed or break them. I still don't understand the reasoning, but I suspect that it's directly related to the free market principles I had drilled into me in Business school.

Anyway, at the time I considered challenging you by re-upping and forcing you to go to Support and/or a public campaign in the forum to get reinstated, but by the end of the season I realized that of the 5 Worlds I was in at the time, Coop was by far the least enjoyable. And believe it or not, it wasn't you that made it that way. So I left without a fight.

As it is, I only brought it up in the context of presenting an opinion that was otherwise not too disimilar from that expressed by you - booger's trade was definitely within the range of reasonable, at least at first glance. I couldn't be seen in public actually agreeing with you, so I gave it a little background color to as a diversion.

BTW, what really ticked you off that season was when right before the end of the season I asked you offline how you'd react if I tried to raise cash to sign Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Aurelio James. I was one of only two franchises that had close to enough cash on hand to sign him, but I was about a million or two short. Mind you, I didn't try to do a deal; I just talked to the commish offline about the possibility. But man were you ****** at me for even mentioning it.

3/3/2011 4:27 PM (edited)

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