Silver Slugger Rant Topic

Jtpsops
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And yet Riley hit more than half his HR and had a higher SLG on the road.
7/8/2012 9:22 PM
details5252
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Posted by Jtpsops on 7/8/2012 9:19:00 PM (view original):
Park factor had to be relevant, because Riley was ahead of Wirth in RC alone (not RC/27).

And details - once again the difference in their OBP was 21 walks. That's only made significant by Wirth's speed, which is valuable for sure. But in and of itself, .400/.590 is not clearly better than .360/.630. Just depends what you need the guy for - setting up runs or driving them in.
Are you crazy? A 400/590 guys is ALWAYS better than a 360/630 guy, not counting stolen bases or defense.

Riley is Mark Trumbo, Wirth is Mike Trout. Trumbo is a fine player, but he's not Mike Trout/

Saying their OBP difference is 21 walks is silly and you know it. The only advantage Riley has is PA.
7/8/2012 9:23 PM
tedwmoore
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Posted by Jtpsops on 7/8/2012 9:21:00 PM (view original):
And by the way, that to me is also what is flawed about RC - it doesn't take RBI or game situation into account. Is the guy who gets to first base and eventually scores more valuable than the guy who drives him in? And yes, you could go the other way - a 2-run single is more valuable than a solo HR. But RC doesn't take that stuff into account. It weights all singles, doubles, triples and HR equally, and they're not.
A guy who slugs 590 is not a table setter. You realize that, right? Just because he steals a bunch of bases does not make him less valuable as a slugger, in fact it makes him more valuable as an offensive player. These guys offer similar power, one just walks more and steals a lot more bases. Hmmmm...
7/8/2012 9:23 PM
tedwmoore
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Posted by Jtpsops on 7/8/2012 9:22:00 PM (view original):
And yet Riley hit more than half his HR and had a higher SLG on the road.
Your park is close to neutral for home runs, favoring lefties slightly. The point of considering park factors is that San Francisco severely limits home runs, which, you know, limits slugging percentage and makes the difference between their 632 and 590 look less interesting.
7/8/2012 9:25 PM
tedwmoore
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And this business about walking only 21 more times is silly. First it is silly because 21 more walks is substantial even as a raw stat. But it is also silly because of the difference in playing time: as a rate stat, your guy walks about half as much as the other guy, 7.5% versus 13.5%.
7/8/2012 9:30 PM
Jtpsops
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Well, if we get to factor in playing time, then I'll submit Riley's first 480 AB and leave it at that. He was shredding the league through the first 105-120 games, slugging over .700. He really slumped and battled the rest of the way - ask my World, I griped about it quite a bit. There's no guarantee Wirth would have kept up his pace either, so to say "Riley played more...". I'll happily chop off his last 200 ABs and we can compare. Riley had 48 HR through 105 games...he was averaging 1 every 2.15 games and his OPS was over 1.050.
7/8/2012 9:33 PM
tedwmoore
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Playing time absolutely should be a factor, but only insofar as a guy gets enough ABs for batting title consideration (at least for the silver slugger award, missed time is perhaps more important when considering the MVP and maybe also the Cy Young).
7/8/2012 9:40 PM
tecwrg
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Awards are irrelevant in the big picture.
7/8/2012 9:58 PM
tedwmoore
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Posted by tecwrg on 7/8/2012 9:58:00 PM (view original):
Awards are irrelevant in the big picture.
But the way we think about them is relevant.
7/8/2012 10:16 PM
kcden
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Posted by tedwmoore on 7/8/2012 10:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/8/2012 9:58:00 PM (view original):
Awards are irrelevant in the big picture.
But the way we think about them is relevant.
There is nothing about the way jtp thinks that is relevant
7/8/2012 11:09 PM
joshkvt
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I wuz robbed. Does everyone agree?
No?
Well then, everyone is wrong.


You brought up something you thought was absurd, and without exception other players think the award went to the right guy. You might not like the answer you got, but you asked the question, and it has been emphatically answered. No one else in HBD (at least among those who post) thinks the award should have gone to your guy. Taking lineup around hitters into consideration for this award would be ridiculous, and no one other than a bunch of 80-year-old baseball writers would do so. And even those morons figured out decades ago that OBP is rather important. If you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. If you just want to make a ridiculous argument for everyone's entertainment, mission accomplished.
7/9/2012 3:36 AM
MikeT23
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Riley was more valuable.  I know that's not jtpops' argument but I'm sure 100% of us would take 663 AB of Riley over 480 AB of Wirth.
7/9/2012 11:20 AM
deanod
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Posted by MikeT23 on 7/9/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
Riley was more valuable.  I know that's not jtpops' argument but I'm sure 100% of us would take 663 AB of Riley over 480 AB of Wirth.
meh i'd have to think about this

wirth has a pretty clear advantage on a per PA basis.  i think once quantity is accounted for it's a pretty close call.
7/9/2012 11:35 AM
zbrent716
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Posted by deanod on 7/9/2012 11:35:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/9/2012 11:20:00 AM (view original):
Riley was more valuable.  I know that's not jtpops' argument but I'm sure 100% of us would take 663 AB of Riley over 480 AB of Wirth.
meh i'd have to think about this

wirth has a pretty clear advantage on a per PA basis.  i think once quantity is accounted for it's a pretty close call.
As would I. Moving forward, I'd obviously much rather have Wirth. For playoffs, obviously much rather have Wirth.

If we could somehow choose the precise production from these 480 AB of Wirth or 663 AB of Riley, the decision would depend on a ton of other variables, including when we would get the AB, who the replacement would be, etc.
7/9/2012 11:38 AM
MikeT23
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I wouldn't.    You have to account for 183 high quality AB.    Unless you're rolling with bench talent, you're getting a drop-off in production.   Their stats are close enough to at least have them in the same ballpark.    So what do you get for those 183 AB?   Less. 

7/9/2012 11:42 AM
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