Posted by gillispie1 on 7/17/2012 4:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by disasteruss on 7/17/2012 6:10:00 AM (view original):
Yeah I'm not really sure how best to respond aside from "That's ridiculous."

This was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I will be unlikely to renew once my seasons run out. This game has become more often frustrating than fun for me.

assuming you still had a scholarship message out, and the last scholarship message was what you said it was, and you had an open spot to sign the player - then there is no way he should have signed with the sim. i would keep pushing for more info, but i would double check those things first, because those are the keys that make this situation a problem. a number of these type of situations have come up where somebody had pulled a scholarship or forgot to offer it in the first place, so it never hurts to double check those things =) 

+1

Posted by gillispie1 on 7/17/2012 4:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 7/16/2012 5:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mullycj on 7/16/2012 4:15:00 PM (view original):
jtt - this same thing has happened in 1-1 human battles where the player changed their choice without spending.   I don't think this issue is only related to SIMS.  I think there is a coding error or something else that CS has not told us.

That's not what I'm talking about.

OK, I'll "eat my crow" in that CS continues to stand by this, but I refuse to believe it.  I was waiting on a sim-recruited player.  He was keeping his options open up through the morning before signings.  The FSS in the early morn said he was keeping his options wide open, as had been the case the entire time.  I went to recruit him and sent 10-15 scouts.  Came back with nothing and a new FSS saying *tight* with the sim.  I thought, "OK, maybe there is considering credit," so I sent another 15 evals.  Nothing.  Didn't even get considering.  Another 10...nothing.  Signed with the sim first cycle of signings.

Now we all now considering credit (if sims even have it, which they may or may not) doesn't matter that much.  To go from "keeping options open" to unrecruitably *tight* based on considering credit seems far-fetched.  I'm not saying it happens in every case, but it seems like it happens.  And I'm certainly not going to rely on CS; I think we all know that's not an ironclad defense.

Can anyone actually verify that sims even get considering credit?

this is totally reasonable... 40 scouting trips not showing up against a "tight" recruit - there is nothing wrong there! why did you spend your money so inefficiently? and yeah, its reasonable for a player to go from loose to tight on considering credit - ive seen it many times myself.

Because he was "keeping options open" when I dropped the first set. 

So what's the most scoutin gtrips it ever took for you to get a "keeping options open guy."  For me it was maybe 25-30.  Never 40.  So even if the guy is "tight," it be just barely tight because it can only be on considering credit that there was a shift.  So 40 doesn't even get me considered now? 

And again, are we 100% sure sims get considering credit? 

On pulldowns do you ever get considered before you are winning?  I have never seen it happen, maybe there is a small gap in there in which you'd show up, but if anything it's no more than 2, maybe 3 SVs worth of a gap, and I'd guess it doesn't exist.  In other words, if you're pulling the guy down and he's already considering someone, you won't show up on the considering list until you have put in enough effort to be winning the battle.  So when you say "doesn't even get me considered," that's tantamount to saying it was at least slightly less effort than the sim had put in.  In D3 I think 40 must have been very, very close.  I'll ask again - were you not getting those messages at the bottoms of the scouting trip reports that suggest that you're getting close?

" My biggest concern isn't necessarily whether or not the SIM made a push. Obviously something changed, so it's hard to argue that at no point did he make a push. I mean, he went from "keeping his options wide open" on the SIM to "struggling between" the two of us when I had dropped quite a bit. And considering I am pretty certain I was in the lead at least for a bit, the fact that he signed with the SIM is another good indicator of that.

My biggest concern, though, is that I received no message indicating any change. Am I confused or was that last schollie message not a clear indicator that I was in the lead? If my assumption is correct, then don't you usually get a message indicating when that changes?"

I don't think you get the message if it goes to 8 AM on the last day when the last battles are decided.

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/17/2012 7:06:00 PM (view original):
On pulldowns do you ever get considered before you are winning?  I have never seen it happen, maybe there is a small gap in there in which you'd show up, but if anything it's no more than 2, maybe 3 SVs worth of a gap, and I'd guess it doesn't exist.  In other words, if you're pulling the guy down and he's already considering someone, you won't show up on the considering list until you have put in enough effort to be winning the battle.  So when you say "doesn't even get me considered," that's tantamount to saying it was at least slightly less effort than the sim had put in.  In D3 I think 40 must have been very, very close.  I'll ask again - were you not getting those messages at the bottoms of the scouting trip reports that suggest that you're getting close?

I have to be honest, I don't read the scouting e-mails and didn't know there was a message telling me I'm getting close.

I guess I'll ask again: given what we know about how sims recruit and that they don't actually spend "money," do they actually get a considering credit?

I have seen various tickets in which admin has referred to considering credit WRT sim recruiting, so I would assume that the answer to that is yes, but I don't have definitive proof of it.  On the other hand, I'd be a lot more inclined to believe that they do than that admin is telling us outright lies concerning sim teams putting additional effort into recruits later in recruiting.  The company line has always been that sims only recruit new players late in recruiting, and as I've always said, if I thought that WIS was deliberately and undeniably lying to me I wouldn't give them another cent of my money.

I doubt they're lying, but wouldn't be shocked if they were clueless.  

I understand that some people in support might not fully understand the subtle nuances of the game engine, but whether or not sims recruit their guys with additional effort during recruiting is a pretty cut-and-dried and unambiguous question.

The bottom line to this is you stopped spending money on the recruit! All you had to do once you was in the lead was send a phone call once in awhile. If it is close sim can take the lead when you stop all effort and they get considering credit ( which I have been told by CS that they do get. But who trust CS?) Some recruits are going to sign in a certain period no matter how much effort you put in to push them to sign earlier so you better be "tight" with those recruits before you stop putting any cash in them or they could  go else where.

Posted by isack24 on 7/17/2012 8:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/17/2012 7:06:00 PM (view original):
On pulldowns do you ever get considered before you are winning?  I have never seen it happen, maybe there is a small gap in there in which you'd show up, but if anything it's no more than 2, maybe 3 SVs worth of a gap, and I'd guess it doesn't exist.  In other words, if you're pulling the guy down and he's already considering someone, you won't show up on the considering list until you have put in enough effort to be winning the battle.  So when you say "doesn't even get me considered," that's tantamount to saying it was at least slightly less effort than the sim had put in.  In D3 I think 40 must have been very, very close.  I'll ask again - were you not getting those messages at the bottoms of the scouting trip reports that suggest that you're getting close?

I have to be honest, I don't read the scouting e-mails and didn't know there was a message telling me I'm getting close.

I guess I'll ask again: given what we know about how sims recruit and that they don't actually spend "money," do they actually get a considering credit?

i am pretty sure sims get considering credit. 

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/17/2012 9:31:00 PM (view original):
I have seen various tickets in which admin has referred to considering credit WRT sim recruiting, so I would assume that the answer to that is yes, but I don't have definitive proof of it.  On the other hand, I'd be a lot more inclined to believe that they do than that admin is telling us outright lies concerning sim teams putting additional effort into recruits later in recruiting.  The company line has always been that sims only recruit new players late in recruiting, and as I've always said, if I thought that WIS was deliberately and undeniably lying to me I wouldn't give them another cent of my money.

i agree, i believe i remember seble saying it too, and it only makes sense from my experience (either sims recruit later, which they do, but not on the same player, or there is considering credit for sims... so....).

i don't know about the deliberate lying thing, i may not have always said the greatest things about seble but i honestly think hes a good guy and really don't think he would lie about that. its possible he could be wrong, or he could misunderstand the question, or something - but i don't think he would intentionally deceive. 

Posted by bdpoor on 7/16/2012 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/16/2012 10:37:00 AM (view original):
what was the last s cholarship message.....tht is the only onw that matters

this... if the sim is still being considered by a player by the time signings start, simmy will make a "final push"... if they are no longer on the considering list they will not make this effort, so it is important to either put in enough effort to take them off or just have enough saved to take back the lead

what makes you think there is a final push? this thread suggests there is, but it seems everything ive read from seble says no. so i am wondering if you saw something else, or have observed it yourself, or what?

Posted by gillispie1 on 7/18/2012 3:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bdpoor on 7/16/2012 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/16/2012 10:37:00 AM (view original):
what was the last s cholarship message.....tht is the only onw that matters

this... if the sim is still being considered by a player by the time signings start, simmy will make a "final push"... if they are no longer on the considering list they will not make this effort, so it is important to either put in enough effort to take them off or just have enough saved to take back the lead

what makes you think there is a final push? this thread suggests there is, but it seems everything ive read from seble says no. so i am wondering if you saw something else, or have observed it yourself, or what?

there have been two times that i can remember that i have put minimal effort into a recruit, gotten a scholly msg stating that i was in the lead, but then the sim re-took the lead the cycle before signings started. being the same cycle i assumed that this meant there was always additional effort put in at that time. ever since those occurences i've always just made sure to knock the sim off considering list to avoid that happening again, and it never has... although after reading some of these posts i'm going to leave it open that it may have been considering credit as i originally didn't think they got any, and to be honest i don't think they should get anything additional as they have a built-in advantage over humans (not to mention they are not paying customers!).

basically i learned my lesson and either way you look at it, whether it is "additional effort" or "considering credit" the same outcome can be expected - if you don't knock the sim off the considering list, you risk the chance of losing the recruit. and if you don't want to put in a few hundred bucks extra for a player that will some day help your program, then most likely he was not worth it in the first place...

@brad: I'm still pretty new to the game so I'm learning. Are you saying it's necessary to occasionally pump some recruiting effort into a guy even after you have the lead even though you're given no indication that you've lost it? Say I was pretty tight, would this still be necessary? Or that he was simply leaning in my direction. I just am a little confused as to why a few phone calls here and there would logically make a difference in the recruiting battle I just lost. Not saying you're wrong, just saying if that's the way the system is set up, that's pretty dumb.

@bdpoor: I get what you're saying about "if you don't want to put in a few hundred bucks extra..." but where is that line? Knocking him off the considering list is way more than a few hundred extra bucks. If I'm having to spend 1K+ extra, that could make or break signing a different recruit, too. Yes, if I had known I wasn't guaranteed to get the guy, I would have spent more. But I assumed the "you got the lead" message meant just that. So why should I waste money? Obviously the lesson is that there is some randomness involved here and "to be sure" you need to spend more. But that seems like a very flawed system to me.

i agree with you russ in that i don't think it's fair that the sims should get any extra considering credit for their efforts, and that's because they automatically get to recruit before we do (which I assume is the only reason they would take the lead, because they get more credit for being first, i could be wrong here...)

also i understand where you're coming from because i had the same thing happen to me, i wasn't trying to be insensitive about the issue you had, and i know how tough it is recruiting in Rupp's GNE after I spent a few seasons there. This is just the way that i dealt with it so that it didn't happen again, and hopefully next time you'll be able to get that player.

Good luck man