Well game hasn't gotten any more realistic... Topic

Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/14/2014 12:30:00 PM (view original):
And moore outrebounded dunlap 3 to 1 in those ten minutes anyway.
I don't see how Dunlap would ever get a rebound as a center. I'd give him a better chance as a guard; he might get a long rebound or something.

But you make a point about there not being many rebounds, another anomaly considering my team has been pretty good on defense most of the year. Offense is another matter, which is kind of odd considering I think we have more offensive options than a lot of teams in the league that have better stats. Maybe it all comes back to IQ like someone said, which as has been mention several times is a trash way to keep new people down.
I once saw muggsy bogues get a rebound in the paint.
2/14/2014 12:43 PM
Yawn, another "I lost, it's the programmer's fault" thread.
2/14/2014 12:47 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 2/14/2014 12:35:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/14/2014 5:31:00 AM (view original):
He was covering Moore for 10 of the 11 minutes.
So how does Moore, my best rebounder, not just abuse the guy on the glass?
now that you have clarified your original complaint, i would ask the question, is out rebounding the other player 3-1 not sufficient?

you might also want to check the team rebounds in that period. rebounding is somewhat of a team effort, and that is reflected (probably more than you would like) in the sim. his sf playing center should result not only in fewer rebounds for himself, but for other players (which does make sense - if hes not there to box people out, or is useless in that regard, even if the rebound isn't coming to him, he is hurting his teams' chances). its going to be such a small sample size in 11 minutes to basically be meaningless, but it would be interesting to see how the team rebounding fared in that period, compare to the rest of the game, when he had an actual big man playing center. a lot of rebounding is computed on the team level, thats where the real comparisons are made - and then rebounds are doled out to individuals in a manner to make the stats look realistic. you really have to look to team rebounds to gauge success.

 at least, it used to work that way - now it still works that way to a substantial extent, but individual matchups are taken into account now. this is an example of where veterans have pushed for a more realistic game, and the site staff have responded. the 3-1 rebounding margin you had in that time suggests they may have done something right, as far as that is concerned - no? maybe your guy should have gotten more than 75%, but when its only 4, its hard to label a 3-1 advantage as unreasonable, isn't it?
Your failure to understand doesn't constitute a lack of clarity on my part.

If this is the attitude you're going to affect with me, I'd rather you not respond to me. With stuff like that I can't tell if you're trying to bait me or being serious, but I don't want to be the victim of asymmetric punishment again.
I'm sorry, could you please point out the attitude in that reply?
2/14/2014 12:47 PM
I complain all the time about the team I follow in real life having 5-8 min scoring droughts.  It's not exactly uncommon.

Looking at a particular 5-minute stretch as the "reason" why a game went this way or that way is ignoring the bigger picture.  I'm sure you can find a 5-min stretch that didn't go your way in every single game.  I'm sure I can on my teams too.

2/14/2014 12:49 PM
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/14/2014 12:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by a_in_the_b on 2/14/2014 12:30:00 PM (view original):
And moore outrebounded dunlap 3 to 1 in those ten minutes anyway.
I don't see how Dunlap would ever get a rebound as a center. I'd give him a better chance as a guard; he might get a long rebound or something.

But you make a point about there not being many rebounds, another anomaly considering my team has been pretty good on defense most of the year. Offense is another matter, which is kind of odd considering I think we have more offensive options than a lot of teams in the league that have better stats. Maybe it all comes back to IQ like someone said, which as has been mention several times is a trash way to keep new people down.
I once saw muggsy bogues get a rebound in the paint.
Like I said, someone playing guard has a better chance. Someone that's severely undermanned in rebounding trying to play against a rebound-oriented center is just never going to work in basketball. I've gotten killed by it several times this season, would have been nice to see it work the other way.

Extremely athletic and aggressive point guards can do ok rebounding-wise. Jahii Carson is averaging more than 4 a game. But Jahii Carson trying to play center would be an unmitigated disaster.
2/14/2014 12:54 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 2/14/2014 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/14/2014 5:31:00 AM (view original):
He was covering Moore for 10 of the 11 minutes.
So how does Moore, my best rebounder, not just abuse the guy on the glass?
oh, is that the bit you were upset about? your first post is quite vague. it definitely make these conversations more constructive if you would identify the game and players in question, and the particular issue you are seeing. this goes against the conventional wisdom that one game is too small of a sample size to get upset about anything, but it still isn't bad to have examples, so if you want to get that specific (one game), the more specific, the better!
I don't think it's overly vague. There isn't just one thing I was upset about, but the center thing is a really obvious example of a flaw in the sim logic. As soon as that guy goes in the game, the sim should be doing everything possible to take advantage of his presence. Running screens to force switches to get him matched up on other guys, taking advantage on the offensive glass, basically anything. 

If my FR center is supposedly horrible on defense (even though I've seen a bunch worse, and again now we're getting back into more value judgment of what is "terrible" largely from the perspective of veterans used to contender-quality teams), this guy is worse. 

The "5 minutes" phenomenon isn't one game at all. I'm guessing there have been 10 games this year that have been lost largely based on what happened in a 5 minute stretch. Not saying all should have been won, but certainly some should.

You want to talk about vague...all these unquantified evaluations like "oh this guy is just terrible" without identifying what good or average is. Consistently, the definition of awful and terrible here has been inconsistent with what I've seen from teams I've played against, and my schedule hasn't been bad. 
you are the guy asking for help, evaluating a result you think is unrealistic. i am simply pointing out a more intelligent, focused conversation results when you make it clear which elements you are unhappy with. it would also help to make it clear which game you are talking about, although i think most of us were able to guess which you meant.

its strange to me you would complain about 10 games being decided in a 5 minute interval, when you are a proponent for realism. most college games i watch are decided in the last 5 minutes. besides, if you cherry pick the best and worst 5 minutes of any game, there is usually a very big stat discrepancy, and saying those 5 minutes decided the game when there are 35 other minutes, is fairly misleading and there just isn't much substance to it.

i think you expect the sim to do too much coaching for you. when we coach and see a guy is going to be defending who should get destroyed, we put guys against him and give them lots of shots, to abuse him. both teams are playing man defense here, and your main player at that position only scores 1.6 points per game. you consistently flip flop between complaints that the sim ignores your game plan, and that it doesn't do enough to override your game plan. you can't have it both ways. you *explicitly* told the engine not to try to score on his center. i would start looking there for an explanation of why the engine did not overly try to score on his center.

also, you are way off when you suggest your schedule hasn't been bad. you seem very unsure of the context from where we are speaking on this forum. well, that context varies, so its hard to pin down, so let me elaborate for you. to be clear, most people have a pretty healthy idea of the context, and by *no* reasonable forum standard, is calling your guy bad vague. calling him terrible on defense would be more accurate, but i was trying to be nice. here's the thing - you are new, and you don't know the standards here. so the way to deal with that is to ask, not to criticize someone else for what boils down to your lack of understanding. im not saying you don't understand basketball, although im not saying the opposite - to be clear, im saying you don't understand the standards on the forum, which hopefully you are smart enough to recognize is not an insult (and frankly is true for every new coach).

so, there are generally a range of standards used in answering questions. many coaches use their own context as context, but many veterans tone down their rhetoric (because, for example, its not helpful to you for me to use the standards i use for myself, when you have less than 1 season and i have 20 championships). so, i think the standard many of us try to use is the standard for teams trying to make the NT consistently. this standard may sound unreasonable when you consider there are 300 and something teams in d3 and d1 - however, most are sim. many d3 worlds have only 100 human teams, and sims are really bad, so comparing to sims is an unreasonably low standard (which, i believe, gives you some of your context issues - your playing of sims is not representative of the typical human who cares about the game). furthermore, the forum community tends to be better educated on the game, and therefore of higher quality than non-forum community coaches. so the "goal" of the lower end forum community is to crack into the NT with some consistency. thats really the first hump, its not hard to get there (many of us are that good in less than 1-5 seasons), although it does require a decent understanding of the game and sim engine, and also, you have to have a decent team (which can take 2 seasons of recruiting even as a quality recruiter, because of what you inherit).

with a new coach such as yourself, many of us are using this standard i have just described, as it is generally considered the lowest helpful standard there is for the forum community. there is no value in telling you how your team compares to totally crappy sim teams. for other posters, and from other posters, you will see a context with much higher standards. many use, in high end discussions, the standard of competing for championships consistently. some will discuss what it takes to be the average #1 quality team. other times, in less high-end discussions, people talk about what it takes to be a quality NT team - a team who can win a couple games and has a decent shot at a deep run.

now that the context is hopefully clearer to you, you may want to take some time to look at some bottom half NT teams. the projection report 30s-50s is probably the place to look (for lower end at large bids). look at those players, and i think it will become immediately and abundantly clear why i consider your center very poor on defense. with all the confusion about use of adjectives based on relative standards, it would really be helpful to you (and we suggest this to all new coaches) to look at some higher end teams (top 10ish), to see what is considered "really good", to look at some 15-25ish teams starting players to see what is considered "pretty good" to "good", and look at some lower end NT teams, 35-55ish, to see what is considered "solid" to "decent". of course, the top players on those teams are better than solid to decent, and the bottom players are worse, but that should give you a much better idea of where we are coming from. any coach who recruited that center, with the goal of managing to make the post season (which is a really, really low standard for anything but an extremely short term goal, given there are 96 post season teams and roughly that many humans), would be told he is way too bad of a defender. so, you should not take this personally. i think if you are a little less defensive about these things, it would go a long way in assisting your development as a coach. telling you your player is bad is not an insult to you personally, in any way. most people are appreciative when people are candid and tell them which players suck and which strategies are sub par, because now they know where to look to improve.
2/14/2014 1:10 PM (edited)
Posted by killbatman on 2/14/2014 12:49:00 PM (view original):
I complain all the time about the team I follow in real life having 5-8 min scoring droughts.  It's not exactly uncommon.

Looking at a particular 5-minute stretch as the "reason" why a game went this way or that way is ignoring the bigger picture.  I'm sure you can find a 5-min stretch that didn't go your way in every single game.  I'm sure I can on my teams too.

This is an angle I've considered, and you may well be right that it's just selection/confirmation bias, and perhaps a bit unfortunate that it seems those stretches have been so critical for my team. 

It seems like things that work the rest of the game though don't work during those times...like the game just gets turned upside down. It's not that what the opponent has been doing that has worked starts working a little better, at least that's not what I'm recalling.

You make probably the best point in the thread though. I don't think it's a total answer, but quite possibly a partial one.
2/14/2014 12:57 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 2/14/2014 12:35:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 12:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 2/14/2014 5:31:00 AM (view original):
He was covering Moore for 10 of the 11 minutes.
So how does Moore, my best rebounder, not just abuse the guy on the glass?
now that you have clarified your original complaint, i would ask the question, is out rebounding the other player 3-1 not sufficient?

you might also want to check the team rebounds in that period. rebounding is somewhat of a team effort, and that is reflected (probably more than you would like) in the sim. his sf playing center should result not only in fewer rebounds for himself, but for other players (which does make sense - if hes not there to box people out, or is useless in that regard, even if the rebound isn't coming to him, he is hurting his teams' chances). its going to be such a small sample size in 11 minutes to basically be meaningless, but it would be interesting to see how the team rebounding fared in that period, compare to the rest of the game, when he had an actual big man playing center. a lot of rebounding is computed on the team level, thats where the real comparisons are made - and then rebounds are doled out to individuals in a manner to make the stats look realistic. you really have to look to team rebounds to gauge success.

 at least, it used to work that way - now it still works that way to a substantial extent, but individual matchups are taken into account now. this is an example of where veterans have pushed for a more realistic game, and the site staff have responded. the 3-1 rebounding margin you had in that time suggests they may have done something right, as far as that is concerned - no? maybe your guy should have gotten more than 75%, but when its only 4, its hard to label a 3-1 advantage as unreasonable, isn't it?
Your failure to understand doesn't constitute a lack of clarity on my part.

If this is the attitude you're going to affect with me, I'd rather you not respond to me. With stuff like that I can't tell if you're trying to bait me or being serious, but I don't want to be the victim of asymmetric punishment again.
frankly, everyone is thinking the *exact* same thing to you - with your poor attitude in receiving all the helpful information and suggestions people have provided, everyone would prefer you not ask or respond at all. 

there is no failure to understand on my part. consider how naive you must be as a new coach, telling one of the most successful coaches in the game, that its his understanding that is the problem. 

and yes, there is a bit of attitude in this post, far less than in yours. however, in my previous posts up to this point, including the quoted post, i was genuinely being helpful. i gave you some very constructive, quality feedback. believe it or not, my insight is really valued by the community, its at least hundreds of coaches who have sought me out personally. there are more than ten people just in the last week - i just mean by sitemail - not including the people who have elicited further responses here on the forums. so if you don't want my advice, or my insight, that is fine with me, i can't serve all the requests i get as it is. i was simply trying to do my part to genuinely give you a second chance. if you aren't interested, thats fine, but i at least wanted to do my part in being fair, by giving you a true second chance.
2/14/2014 1:11 PM (edited)
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 2:49:00 AM (view original):
Every game it picks 5 minutes for my team to just stop playing and let the other team win no matter what the rest of the game looks like. Seems like the outcome is predetermined before the game is even played. Is the play by play just window dressing and the result actually determined before it's generated? That's what it seems like. 

Today it rewarded a team for playing an SF at C...really wish I hadn't let someone talk me into continuing to play. I guess I just have to hope I recruit well enough to override all of the sim problems. Not sure if that's possible.

Also, anything personal toward me is getting flagged immediately. Admin misunderstood what happened on the last thread...making sure that doesn't happen this time. There's going to be no question who escalated what...

Assess and evaluate by rating attributes, not by listed position. I have often played a SF at C, because often more ATH/SPD for FCP.
2/14/2014 1:13 PM
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."   

this quotation - which may or may not properly be attributed to Einstein - applies in many ways here.

relevant to posters commenting in this thread

relevant to etta failure to be satisfied with the SIM

less relevant to ability to find in a play by play a sequence in which there is a very bad 3 or 5 minute stretch - if one tossed a coin 1000 times one would almost surely be able to identify a shocking 50 toss segment of that sequence

2/14/2014 1:19 PM
Posted by headpirate on 2/14/2014 1:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 2:49:00 AM (view original):
Every game it picks 5 minutes for my team to just stop playing and let the other team win no matter what the rest of the game looks like. Seems like the outcome is predetermined before the game is even played. Is the play by play just window dressing and the result actually determined before it's generated? That's what it seems like. 

Today it rewarded a team for playing an SF at C...really wish I hadn't let someone talk me into continuing to play. I guess I just have to hope I recruit well enough to override all of the sim problems. Not sure if that's possible.

Also, anything personal toward me is getting flagged immediately. Admin misunderstood what happened on the last thread...making sure that doesn't happen this time. There's going to be no question who escalated what...

Assess and evaluate by rating attributes, not by listed position. I have often played a SF at C, because often more ATH/SPD for FCP.
It's insulting that someone thinks I don't know this. And indicative that they haven't looked at my team's games at all.
2/14/2014 1:51 PM
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 1:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by headpirate on 2/14/2014 1:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 2:49:00 AM (view original):
Every game it picks 5 minutes for my team to just stop playing and let the other team win no matter what the rest of the game looks like. Seems like the outcome is predetermined before the game is even played. Is the play by play just window dressing and the result actually determined before it's generated? That's what it seems like. 

Today it rewarded a team for playing an SF at C...really wish I hadn't let someone talk me into continuing to play. I guess I just have to hope I recruit well enough to override all of the sim problems. Not sure if that's possible.

Also, anything personal toward me is getting flagged immediately. Admin misunderstood what happened on the last thread...making sure that doesn't happen this time. There's going to be no question who escalated what...

Assess and evaluate by rating attributes, not by listed position. I have often played a SF at C, because often more ATH/SPD for FCP.
It's insulting that someone thinks I don't know this. And indicative that they haven't looked at my team's games at all.
it says a lot about you that you take that as an insult. you are a new coach. you said the team was rewarded for playing a SF at C. if you meant, the team was rewarded for playing a terrible rebounder at center, you should have said that. but as it stands, it really raises the question if you are aware there are no position ratings in HD. there is no reason to be insulted by this coach's attempt at helping you. well, let me correct that - there is no rational reason to be insulted. there are plenty of irrational reasons.
2/14/2014 1:56 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/14/2014 1:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by fd343ny on 2/14/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."   

this quotation - which may or may not properly be attributed to Einstein - applies in many ways here.

relevant to posters commenting in this thread

relevant to etta failure to be satisfied with the SIM

less relevant to ability to find in a play by play a sequence in which there is a very bad 3 or 5 minute stretch - if one tossed a coin 1000 times one would almost surely be able to identify a shocking 50 toss segment of that sequence

Actually, I haven't been doing the same thing over and over, or anything close.

The implication is evidence of your ignorance with regard to my team and what's been done. 

So you're implying that my team has had an equal chance to win those games (a coin toss). OK, so why hasn't my team put on such runs to win more games? Just unlucky? 
nowhere is he remotely close to implying that. i think your lack of a basic understanding of simple statistics is really hurting your experience here with HD - it is, once again, leading to an issue where the gap between your expectations and reality are quite far apart. when you combine that with taking the outcomes overly serious, it is no wonder you get so upset. you could, of course, spend some time studying statistics - but in the mean time you may want to just take the game less seriously. getting upset about small statistical samples is going to make this game hell for anybody!
2/14/2014 2:00 PM
For sure, I'd hate to see him react to a legitimately bad screw job.  Like off the top of my head, going into an NT game and gameplanning around your starting PG's favorable matchup with the opposing PG..and watching your PG get hurt and play 3 minutes, contributing to losing the game.  That's the kind of stuff that makes me want to quit the game when it happens.  Complaining about shooting or rebounding over a 5 minute stretch is a waste of breath, by comparison.
2/14/2014 2:07 PM
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Well game hasn't gotten any more realistic... Topic

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