Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/24/2017 5:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/24/2017 2:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/23/2017 9:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/23/2017 3:39:00 PM (view original):
If my goal is to get to the S16 four years in a row, FB/Press or Mo/Man is the answer. To succeed in FB/Press, one needs Ath De Sp Sta. Therefore, you can take guys where that is all they have a wreak havoc off the bench. You can't take ANYBODY with poor Ath De but you don't have to take anyone with Per or Pa.

With Mo/Man you can take build a crazy good team, while having .5 to 2 shooters and no bigs with LP. With Mo/Man you can run uptempo with 11 guys or slowdown with 8. All you need is Ath De Pa.

Tri/Zone teams are great if all you want to do is get to the second round, once, but very hard to implement. Triangle/Zone teams will get ****** losses, even if they all filled with talent.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=3448

Prairie View is a great example. They got great wins but had inexplicable losses, and got booted out of the NT. Zone is great in theory, you just can't actually win unless you have extreme talent. I'm all for zone at high DI, but even relatively talented teams like Cal got ****** sims, unfortunately two of them were in the NT (In 96 and 97).

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=3266

With all do respect, this is awful advice.

You can win with almost any combo. That's the beauty of the game. Anyone who tells you have to do something doesn't see the big picture.

Shawn Meier was your first drafted player at Fordham. His first year was in Season 92. Your first 8 years at Fordham, before you got that elite talent, you had 1 NT appearance and 0 NT wins. The next 8 years, you had 6 players drafted, and had 10 NT wins. Zone works really well with good players and AWFUL with average ones. I challenge you to recruit 2-stars at the highest, running zone, and get 10 NT wins the next 8 years.

And your position is that press works well with average talent?

Far better yes. NO Talent. NO IQ. 55 RPI. How? The system. Median 42 free throws per game, because of 80/80 Ath/De. Wentzel was the only person who contacted Rupe, I believe he told me, but Rupe has became an offensive force as a freshman with no PER and poor BH because he has taken more FTs than FGAs. Put this team in zone and they aren't even 10-7 against this schedule.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Roster.aspx?tid=7886

What's so good about that team? It's on pretty much the same trajectory as my Fordham team was and my Auburn team is. The season he is having, which is pretty solid for where he started, isn't ground breaking or anything. He's 3-6 vs top 100 RPI teams and two of those three wins are against the 100 team and the other is vs a SIM.

I am not sure how that proves your point.

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/24/2017 5:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/24/2017 5:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/24/2017 2:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/23/2017 9:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/23/2017 3:39:00 PM (view original):
If my goal is to get to the S16 four years in a row, FB/Press or Mo/Man is the answer. To succeed in FB/Press, one needs Ath De Sp Sta. Therefore, you can take guys where that is all they have a wreak havoc off the bench. You can't take ANYBODY with poor Ath De but you don't have to take anyone with Per or Pa.

With Mo/Man you can take build a crazy good team, while having .5 to 2 shooters and no bigs with LP. With Mo/Man you can run uptempo with 11 guys or slowdown with 8. All you need is Ath De Pa.

Tri/Zone teams are great if all you want to do is get to the second round, once, but very hard to implement. Triangle/Zone teams will get ****** losses, even if they all filled with talent.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=3448

Prairie View is a great example. They got great wins but had inexplicable losses, and got booted out of the NT. Zone is great in theory, you just can't actually win unless you have extreme talent. I'm all for zone at high DI, but even relatively talented teams like Cal got ****** sims, unfortunately two of them were in the NT (In 96 and 97).

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=3266

With all do respect, this is awful advice.

You can win with almost any combo. That's the beauty of the game. Anyone who tells you have to do something doesn't see the big picture.

Shawn Meier was your first drafted player at Fordham. His first year was in Season 92. Your first 8 years at Fordham, before you got that elite talent, you had 1 NT appearance and 0 NT wins. The next 8 years, you had 6 players drafted, and had 10 NT wins. Zone works really well with good players and AWFUL with average ones. I challenge you to recruit 2-stars at the highest, running zone, and get 10 NT wins the next 8 years.

And your position is that press works well with average talent?

Far better yes. NO Talent. NO IQ. 55 RPI. How? The system. Median 42 free throws per game, because of 80/80 Ath/De. Wentzel was the only person who contacted Rupe, I believe he told me, but Rupe has became an offensive force as a freshman with no PER and poor BH because he has taken more FTs than FGAs. Put this team in zone and they aren't even 10-7 against this schedule.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Roster.aspx?tid=7886

I'm confused. You cited a bunch of nice offensive numbers-what does that have to do with running zone as a defense?

Posted by darnoc29099 on 12/24/2017 10:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/24/2017 5:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/24/2017 5:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/24/2017 2:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/23/2017 9:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/23/2017 3:39:00 PM (view original):
If my goal is to get to the S16 four years in a row, FB/Press or Mo/Man is the answer. To succeed in FB/Press, one needs Ath De Sp Sta. Therefore, you can take guys where that is all they have a wreak havoc off the bench. You can't take ANYBODY with poor Ath De but you don't have to take anyone with Per or Pa.

With Mo/Man you can take build a crazy good team, while having .5 to 2 shooters and no bigs with LP. With Mo/Man you can run uptempo with 11 guys or slowdown with 8. All you need is Ath De Pa.

Tri/Zone teams are great if all you want to do is get to the second round, once, but very hard to implement. Triangle/Zone teams will get ****** losses, even if they all filled with talent.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=3448

Prairie View is a great example. They got great wins but had inexplicable losses, and got booted out of the NT. Zone is great in theory, you just can't actually win unless you have extreme talent. I'm all for zone at high DI, but even relatively talented teams like Cal got ****** sims, unfortunately two of them were in the NT (In 96 and 97).

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/History.aspx?tid=3266

With all do respect, this is awful advice.

You can win with almost any combo. That's the beauty of the game. Anyone who tells you have to do something doesn't see the big picture.

Shawn Meier was your first drafted player at Fordham. His first year was in Season 92. Your first 8 years at Fordham, before you got that elite talent, you had 1 NT appearance and 0 NT wins. The next 8 years, you had 6 players drafted, and had 10 NT wins. Zone works really well with good players and AWFUL with average ones. I challenge you to recruit 2-stars at the highest, running zone, and get 10 NT wins the next 8 years.

And your position is that press works well with average talent?

Far better yes. NO Talent. NO IQ. 55 RPI. How? The system. Median 42 free throws per game, because of 80/80 Ath/De. Wentzel was the only person who contacted Rupe, I believe he told me, but Rupe has became an offensive force as a freshman with no PER and poor BH because he has taken more FTs than FGAs. Put this team in zone and they aren't even 10-7 against this schedule.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Roster.aspx?tid=7886

I'm confused. You cited a bunch of nice offensive numbers-what does that have to do with running zone as a defense?

Press generates offense. The guys you can recruit in Press generate offense (in FB), more specifically.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/24/2017 9:30:00 PM (view original):
What's so good about that team? It's on pretty much the same trajectory as my Fordham team was and my Auburn team is. The season he is having, which is pretty solid for where he started, isn't ground breaking or anything. He's 3-6 vs top 100 RPI teams and two of those three wins are against the 100 team and the other is vs a SIM.

I am not sure how that proves your point.

Well the top ranked player was #150 Petrie. Wentzel has been in no battles. Auburn and Fordham are succeeding with EE talent. In about two years, E Ill is going to succeed with moderate talent. I'll bump this thread in two months.

3rd year, Fordham was on pace for the same RPI, but Fordham had 5 human recruited upperclassmen to EIU's 1.

Look at my record at those places in the first 4 years....the results are similar. Auburn doesn't have anyone on the draft board and I started there as a D+. Those early Fordham teams were still in 2.0 but I can assure you those players weren't special!

You're reaching here cub. Press generates more possessions via creating TOs, I'll give you that. But you're literally arguing running zone affects your players' offensive efficiency/effectiveness and that doesn't quite add up.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 12/25/2017 8:38:00 AM (view original):
Look at my record at those places in the first 4 years....the results are similar. Auburn doesn't have anyone on the draft board and I started there as a D+. Those early Fordham teams were still in 2.0 but I can assure you those players weren't special!

I'm sorry but Auburn 137 RPI and Fordham 56 RPI (with 5 human recruited upperclassmen) is a far cry from EIU 56 RPI (with one human recruited upperclassmen) and Weber's 32 RPI (with four human recruited upperclassmen).

I lost to some stacked Fordham teams with my stacked Weber teams. They were very good. Your zone worked great maximizing your talent. Sullivan and Beauchamp were unstoppable! Zone works well with talent and doesn't work as well with poorer talent. Run zone at Low DI if your going to try to get in the roll for EEs (a perfectly legitimate strategy) but don't if you are going to get 4 defensive specialists and 4 offensive specialists.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 12/25/2017 8:49:00 AM (view original):
You're reaching here cub. Press generates more possessions via creating TOs, I'll give you that. But you're literally arguing running zone affects your players' offensive efficiency/effectiveness and that doesn't quite add up.

Here is my point:

The players you recruit in press (85 ath de sp) can play elite presss defense and then score without offense rather efficiently. Per and Bh are hard to get in recruiting, along with solid defense, so you can build a team who's offense comes from the "defensive" ratings.

Do you agree? Am I stating this wrong?

Example

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=0&pid=3775945

I think you're forcing your point. Using Rupe as an example he's successful because he plays FB, not because he plays press. He also hasn't exactly played the who's who of whatever world that is.

In fact, look further. Look at the guards Rupe is going up against on the teams he has beaten-they're pretty awful. He should be shooting more FTs than FGA against that competition. But again, that's because he plays FB, not because he plays press.

Posted by darnoc29099 on 12/25/2017 9:43:00 AM (view original):
I think you're forcing your point. Using Rupe as an example he's successful because he plays FB, not because he plays press. He also hasn't exactly played the who's who of whatever world that is.

In fact, look further. Look at the guards Rupe is going up against on the teams he has beaten-they're pretty awful. He should be shooting more FTs than FGA against that competition. But again, that's because he plays FB, not because he plays press.

Can you play FB with Zone or Man? Does anyone successfully?

Honest question.

Here’s the simplest explanation of each offense....

Motion - focuses on outside shooting. Best run when your top scorers are perimeter shooters. Big men need more passing ability and big man perimeter shooting is a plus.

Triangle - focuses on an inside game. Best run when your top offensive weapons are in the paint, ie big men, athletic guards

Flex - uses a blend of outside shooting and inside game... best run when you have a strong inside scorer and a long distance threat.

Fast break - perimeter and inside shooting play less of a factor. Speed and athleticism is key. The goal is to beat the other team down the court and get layups and dunks. Half court offense is less structured but much less effective.

Triangle and Motion offenses are much more effective but take more specific recruiting to be successful. Flex is less effective but easier to recruit a winning team since you can focus on inside or outside scorers. Fast break is probably the most difficult to run at lower levels since athletic players are harder to get at a quality level at a lower division in 3.0

I personally would not run fast break without some sort of press defense. If you run zone or man, you should do at least a half court press.

Posted by cubcub113 on 12/25/2017 9:59:00 AM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 12/25/2017 9:43:00 AM (view original):
I think you're forcing your point. Using Rupe as an example he's successful because he plays FB, not because he plays press. He also hasn't exactly played the who's who of whatever world that is.

In fact, look further. Look at the guards Rupe is going up against on the teams he has beaten-they're pretty awful. He should be shooting more FTs than FGA against that competition. But again, that's because he plays FB, not because he plays press.

Can you play FB with Zone or Man? Does anyone successfully?

Honest question.

I won a title with fb/zone in d3 wooden, years ago.

my Mississippi (d3) team is fb/zone they are pretty good.

my d2 fb/man team currently sucks but it’s because of a number of reasons.

Are you still in Wooden, cubcub? Arguably the greatest D1 dynasty EVER in HD was hofhof at Syracuse and he ran FB/man. Not only can it be done but he did it at the highest level while losing 3-5 EEs every season. If I recall correctly he won something like 10 titles in 27 seasons but made the title game 14/27 times in that stretch. Dude always had an insane amount of PER on his teams.