Guards driving to the basket Topic

The funny thing about humor is you have to do it right.

The good news is that Gillespie answered a technical question. Those nuggets are always valuable.

Making the forums great again
5/8/2019 3:18 PM
The funny thing about humor.. I see what you did there.
5/8/2019 3:25 PM
Posted by kcsundevil on 5/8/2019 2:21:00 PM (view original):
I doubt the engine is sophisticated enough to know the difference between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 foot jumper.

I've always assumed there are 5 or 6 categories a shot can fall into (dunk / bunny, paint, mid-range, 3, desperation, etc) and the PBP applies window dressing from there.
i could be mistaken but im almost positive feet from the basket is a parameter to the functions that do the scoring technology. that's not really something i expected, but something seble explained to me at some point. so i do think it knows the different between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 footer, although its more or less a random decision of whether or not its 12 or 14 feet in the first place.
5/8/2019 3:41 PM
Posted by gillispie1 on 5/8/2019 3:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 5/8/2019 2:21:00 PM (view original):
I doubt the engine is sophisticated enough to know the difference between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 foot jumper.

I've always assumed there are 5 or 6 categories a shot can fall into (dunk / bunny, paint, mid-range, 3, desperation, etc) and the PBP applies window dressing from there.
i could be mistaken but im almost positive feet from the basket is a parameter to the functions that do the scoring technology. that's not really something i expected, but something seble explained to me at some point. so i do think it knows the different between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 footer, although its more or less a random decision of whether or not its 12 or 14 feet in the first place.
So does the scoring formula weigh perimeter more and lp less for every foot from the basket? Or are there two distinct formulas used, one lp/ath based and the other sod/per?
5/8/2019 5:04 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/8/2019 5:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 5/8/2019 3:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 5/8/2019 2:21:00 PM (view original):
I doubt the engine is sophisticated enough to know the difference between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 foot jumper.

I've always assumed there are 5 or 6 categories a shot can fall into (dunk / bunny, paint, mid-range, 3, desperation, etc) and the PBP applies window dressing from there.
i could be mistaken but im almost positive feet from the basket is a parameter to the functions that do the scoring technology. that's not really something i expected, but something seble explained to me at some point. so i do think it knows the different between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 footer, although its more or less a random decision of whether or not its 12 or 14 feet in the first place.
So does the scoring formula weigh perimeter more and lp less for every foot from the basket? Or are there two distinct formulas used, one lp/ath based and the other sod/per?
I'm wondering the same thing. From a code maintenance angle, this sounds needlessly complex.

I imagine every shot has a random raw difficulty factor figured in. But I'm not sure that would translate directly to # of feet.
5/8/2019 5:22 PM
I’ve always though Paul Salisbury from my Washington team in Wooden was an interesting case study in the ability to drive to the basket. He played his entire career with 50/49 LP/Per but was one of the most dominant offensive players I’ve ever had his senior year. He averaged over 9 Free throw attempts per game as a senior.

https://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Ratings.aspx?&pid=3594451

5/8/2019 7:37 PM
Posted by Benis on 5/8/2019 2:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mbriese on 5/8/2019 2:03:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Benis on 5/8/2019 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Benis on 5/8/2019 11:08:00 AM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 5/8/2019 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Benis on 5/8/2019 9:58:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Tiptop00 on 5/8/2019 7:49:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mullycj on 5/8/2019 6:51:00 AM (view original):
Well technically you asked TWO questions
I never asked anything about when recruiting starts. People wonder why we can’t get new people when we have annoying guys like this who just won’t help out on a simple question.
I'm pretty sure this is definitely NOT the reason new people don't stick around to play HD.
Doesn't help.
The forums are so tame and boring now. It's inconsequential. If mikeT didn't single handily ruin the forums and HD, nothing will.
Although on the other hand, the populations are so pathetic that even losing one person is like 1% of the population of a world.


Live look at Benis
Ha, it's not even the right hair color. Nice try!
Wait....wait.....wait......Benis has hair? Totally changes what I thought you looked like.
5/8/2019 8:38 PM
Posted by shoe3 on 5/8/2019 11:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/8/2019 7:25:00 AM (view original):
Most importantly they need low PErimeter. Then it’s a combo of speed, bh, lp, and ath. Most guards have good speed and bh so those kinda take care of themselves, above average ath and some LP (30 is good , 50 is great) go a long way.

if you have perimeter it helps you score but it will increase the likelihood of jump shots.
For the record, this is the correct answer.

LP and perimeter aren’t just describing ability, they are also referring to tendency. A guard with 60/25 LP/Per will be a good candidate for a “slasher” type, especially with good ath and FT to draw fouls and rack up easy points from the line. A guard with 25/60 LP/Per will settle for a lot of mid range jumpshots, and will not get to the line as often.
Shoe, I’m stuck on this comment, it’s very interesting and intriguing if it’s true and I understood you correctly. Were you saying good FT helps draw fouls?
5/8/2019 9:06 PM
Posted by Sportsbulls on 5/8/2019 9:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shoe3 on 5/8/2019 11:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/8/2019 7:25:00 AM (view original):
Most importantly they need low PErimeter. Then it’s a combo of speed, bh, lp, and ath. Most guards have good speed and bh so those kinda take care of themselves, above average ath and some LP (30 is good , 50 is great) go a long way.

if you have perimeter it helps you score but it will increase the likelihood of jump shots.
For the record, this is the correct answer.

LP and perimeter aren’t just describing ability, they are also referring to tendency. A guard with 60/25 LP/Per will be a good candidate for a “slasher” type, especially with good ath and FT to draw fouls and rack up easy points from the line. A guard with 25/60 LP/Per will settle for a lot of mid range jumpshots, and will not get to the line as often.
Shoe, I’m stuck on this comment, it’s very interesting and intriguing if it’s true and I understood you correctly. Were you saying good FT helps draw fouls?
No, the good athleticism helps draw fouls, the good FT shooting helps rack up the points.
5/8/2019 9:16 PM
Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/8/2019 5:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by gillispie1 on 5/8/2019 3:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kcsundevil on 5/8/2019 2:21:00 PM (view original):
I doubt the engine is sophisticated enough to know the difference between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 foot jumper.

I've always assumed there are 5 or 6 categories a shot can fall into (dunk / bunny, paint, mid-range, 3, desperation, etc) and the PBP applies window dressing from there.
i could be mistaken but im almost positive feet from the basket is a parameter to the functions that do the scoring technology. that's not really something i expected, but something seble explained to me at some point. so i do think it knows the different between a 12 foot jumper and a 14 footer, although its more or less a random decision of whether or not its 12 or 14 feet in the first place.
So does the scoring formula weigh perimeter more and lp less for every foot from the basket? Or are there two distinct formulas used, one lp/ath based and the other sod/per?
i have to make an educated guess as a programmer - knowing there is feet as a component, im assuming its both. it would be overly difficult to craft 1 formula that works well from 0 to say 22 feet or whatever. i would guess it actually breaks down into 2 or 3 formulas, each of which basically weighs per more and lp less as you get further from the basket.

what's interesting to think about is how the game decides which type of shot to play. it basically looks at per and maybe lp (maybe more, but i think its really per driven), and then decides where the player is going to be willing to take a shot from. i believe the game selects who takes a shot, before ever selecting where that shot is taken from, but i may have forgotten / gotten mixed up on that. anyway, from there i think it basically selects where you would want to shoot from - a decision you get some control over with the +/- setting, but its limited - a high per guy on -2 won't really drive much more, he just takes really long 2s.

anyway, for a long time i was thrown by how little value having good in both lp/per was compared to just one with a little of the other, like for example how a low 70s lp + per d2 player will perform, its just not that much better than like a 1 lp / 70 per player. i think the reason is because like all equations in HD, you really have a maximum - or something like a maximum, where extra stats add almost no value. its kind of like how a 90 spd/per/bh guy in d1 is vastly better than 81 spd/per/bh but marginally to negligibly worse than 99spd/per/bh (just talking scoring). well, with the closer 2 point shots, i think you get into really serious diminishing returns sooner than folks would naturally assume, including myself - so i think basically what ends up happening a lot of times when you add lots of lp or per to an already-good player, is they just end up being open to taking a wider range of shots, and end up being pretty good across that range of shots, but in total, they may not really end up being any better than a guy who specializes in 3s (actually they are often worse than that because of how efficient 3s are in this game) or a guy who specializes in close 2s, and takes those optimal shots at a higher % clip than the other guy, who is willing to basically take any shot even though not all are his best shot.

i think i made that last bit hard to follow - just saying like the guy who has less skills but has a specialty shot, who takes 50% of his shots that way and 50% non-optimal shots, end up almost as good (and sometimes better) than the guy who has more skills, but takes their best shot 25% of the time and 75% other shots, because the engine looks at roughly all shots as near-optimal and viable for this player.
5/9/2019 9:27 AM (edited)
You guys make my head hurt! I just enjoy playing the game!
5/9/2019 10:20 AM
"i believe the game selects who takes a shot, before ever selecting where that shot is taken from, "

i am pretty sure this is accurate.

The first decision after a team breaks half court is who the possession runs through, then is it a foul, shot, or TO. If it's a shot, I assume what type of shot is decided with the defender's defensive score, opponent's defenisve setting weighing in the equations as well as the offensive factors.
5/9/2019 11:06 AM
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
Posted by Trentonjoe on 5/9/2019 11:06:00 AM (view original):
"i believe the game selects who takes a shot, before ever selecting where that shot is taken from, "

i am pretty sure this is accurate.

The first decision after a team breaks half court is who the possession runs through, then is it a foul, shot, or TO. If it's a shot, I assume what type of shot is decided with the defender's defensive score, opponent's defenisve setting weighing in the equations as well as the offensive factors.
i agree with all this except i don't think the defender's ratings or IQ have any impact on where the shot is taken. i kind of think it should - but i don't think it does - although that is purely my best guess. their defensive set (man etc) and their +/- setting definitely have an impact, but i kind of think that is it. if you think about how the TO or foul comes before figuring out if its even a shot or not, i think it kind of makes sense (but i also never saw an impact of good or bad defense on the types of shots i took - which i would have expected to notice). i basically think the guy taking the shot is chosen, then where, then the defender is selected and then evaluated (except zone is just evaluated, nobody needs to be selected), and finally, they determine the make/miss % and flip that coin.
5/9/2019 9:44 PM
I notice my teams shoots more threes against slow teams, but it could be a combo of me wanting to see that and adjusted 3fg settings.
5/9/2019 10:12 PM
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Guards driving to the basket Topic

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