Posted by Mwett on 12/8/2020 9:13:00 PM (view original):
It took me 3 OLs and 300 losses before accidentally stumbling upon advanced search and normalization tools. There's still no literature on this for newbs to easily be made aware of upon arrival or helps hints of hey Alonso's 50 HRs may not be the same for you, except peer rival/customer posts which we may not know to look for or easily find while initially attempting to wander the halls. I am thankful to those who pay money to pay forward things that should've already been there from the company, and no small wonder rather than persevere like I'm trying to that many newbs take their initial beat downs and disappear. Perhaps WIS bottom line is more appreciative of OL sharks and their too frequent single team copycat cookie cutter W/L success and trophy accumulation to bother with attracting and retaining new clientele.

We have spent years building the helpful forums, as well as pinning threads easy to find. The help was there before you landed on the beach...

The first two threads are FAQ of Simleague Baseball, then Advice for Newbies. Hiding in plain sight?

Ask yourself...when you open a new game, do you bother to read the instructions?

Posted by adlorenz on 12/8/2020 8:25:00 PM (view original):
Oh man, look what I started lol. I assure I am looking at a lot of these things and have been reading your forums, even though I don't comment a ton.

I saw this as a code change even I could handle, (I haven't developed in 10 years). It would have immediate impact on our new players. So given ozomatli's numbers and the 10% stamina buffer is 1400 reasonable for IP... 1400 + 140 = 1540 and 162*9 = 1458. Will we get "death spirals" at 80 extra innings?

Death spirals happen due to one of two reasons:

• Not enough pitches available from your pitching staff
• Bad management

I've seen respectable, veteran players get hit with death spirals after drafting 1,450 IP in mid-cap leagues. At a lower cap like 80M this is less likely, especially with AAA.

It comes back to what the goal is. I could see it being any of the following:

• Retain players playing their first season(s)
• Build trust between WIS recommendations and new players
• Help new players make competitive teams

There's definitely a balance to strike between helping them be competitive with veterans and setting them up for failure with regard to pitching staff management. Both scenarios can lead to frustration and abandonment of the game.

1,400 will be fine if we assume that they all discover and use their AAA pitchers. IMO that's a risky assumption to make. A few extra inning games early in the season (possible) and bad pitch count setting (likely) could still spell trouble. It's also assuming they draft decent pitchers. But it's probably ok for most cases — anything below 1,400 tips the balance too far towards the chance of a season that has no shot after the first 20 games, though.

What he said...this is fair.

Posted by DoctorKz on 12/8/2020 9:51:00 PM (view original):
You're supplying AAA. 1,400 is way too protective. They'lI never learn without some danger. Scale it back a bit. 1,350 would be fair.

Add in the notes/cautions mentioned above about how to structure a basic roster. The links to the pinned threads is a must...

1350 with 10% gives you 1485IP + AAA.

I agree with Doc.

I think 1400 is fair...but I think if you communicate properly beforehand, 1350 would be more beneficial.

Make sure they know about AAA, make sure they understand how the WW works, make sure they understand early season fatigue. These are all things that, among many others, are too hidden and hard to find for new owners if they don't actively look for it.

Get the boys over in the Progressives to write an introduction to paste at the top of their forum. Some people probably don't even know what they are, or how they work. If you can't get someone like Russell (rooskie) or Al (bootone) to do it, I will...those are great leagues. I simply don't have time to commit to them.

Anyone who thinks they might enjoy being a GM needs to be poking around over there. Fun to play, and a super group of owners and league commissioners.

Just so you can all yell at me, I split the difference to start went 1400 and there will be a link to the advice for newbies section in the draft center.

When I go back to Chris in 2 months to change it again you can all say I told you so.

I really appreciate the feedback and help.

-Adam

A big help would be real names for AAA. Probably make them from their actual seasons instead of the "based on the current past season" for normalization.

As it is now, only those in the know realize their true value. Very unfair to the newbs.

Posted by ozomatli on 12/8/2020 8:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by just4me on 12/8/2020 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by adlorenz on 12/8/2020 4:17:00 PM (view original):
What should those numbers be in the draft center? Right now its 1500 IP and 6000 PA.

Think of the bottom of the barrel new player, if they didn't know how to use $200k players to soak up innings in blow outs or utilize their AAA's properly... what do you think the recommended IP/PA should be in the draft center.

Thanks!

Adam

1,300 IP and 5,200 PA

With the built in 10% buffer already, that's more than enough for anyone, even without AAA or even if they choose a hitter-friendly park like Coors. That would go a VERY LONG WAY towards helping new owners be competitive from the get go. But if you're afraid that's cutting too close (I don't think it is), you could even add a small note that if they choose a hitter friendly park, they may want to have a little buffer and take another 50-100 IP and 200-400 PA.

This still isn't right, IMO.

1,300 IP for a new player will lead to a ton of fatigue death spirals. The right number should be 1,450 (162 * 9 = 1,458). Adding a note that says expert players go much lower should be enough and give them something to work for. If you combine this with the suggestion of a "beginner's league" that isolates newbies from vets, recommending a number like 1,300 becomes less important for competitive reasons since everyone will be new. Then, they'll learn over time and understand there will be a learning curve when they "graduate" to regular leagues.

The PA recommendation is about right, but it'd be more useful to recommend a per position number. This makes it more actionable for new players. Oh, I need 650 PAs for each position, cool (rather than, ok I need 5,200 between my starters and bench)

This doesn’t take into account the 10% buffer. With that added in, 1,300 IP equals 1,430 give or take. With 1,350, even in Coors, there’s no real chance of a fatigue death spiral unless a team is just completely neglected, and even then, it would happen with 1,600 IP under those same circumstances.

There’s never a reason to draft more than 1,350 IP in an $80m league. 1,300 is very reasonable and only needs more in the most extreme circumstances.

Posted by grizzly_one on 12/8/2020 11:48:00 PM (view original):
A big help would be real names for AAA. Probably make them from their actual seasons instead of the "based on the current past season" for normalization.

As it is now, only those in the know realize their true value. Very unfair to the newbs.

This is very true...

Posted by adlorenz on 12/8/2020 10:41:00 PM (view original):
Just so you can all yell at me, I split the difference to start went 1400 and there will be a link to the advice for newbies section in the draft center.

When I go back to Chris in 2 months to change it again you can all say I told you so.

I really appreciate the feedback and help.

-Adam

Sorry, just catching up, reasonable compromise. Much better than what we have now. Still a little on high end, imo, but much much better and we’ll see improvement already. Thank you for the quick response!

Posted by just4me on 12/9/2020 12:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ozomatli on 12/8/2020 8:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by just4me on 12/8/2020 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by adlorenz on 12/8/2020 4:17:00 PM (view original):
What should those numbers be in the draft center? Right now its 1500 IP and 6000 PA.

Think of the bottom of the barrel new player, if they didn't know how to use $200k players to soak up innings in blow outs or utilize their AAA's properly... what do you think the recommended IP/PA should be in the draft center.

Thanks!

Adam

1,300 IP and 5,200 PA

With the built in 10% buffer already, that's more than enough for anyone, even without AAA or even if they choose a hitter-friendly park like Coors. That would go a VERY LONG WAY towards helping new owners be competitive from the get go. But if you're afraid that's cutting too close (I don't think it is), you could even add a small note that if they choose a hitter friendly park, they may want to have a little buffer and take another 50-100 IP and 200-400 PA.

This still isn't right, IMO.

1,300 IP for a new player will lead to a ton of fatigue death spirals. The right number should be 1,450 (162 * 9 = 1,458). Adding a note that says expert players go much lower should be enough and give them something to work for. If you combine this with the suggestion of a "beginner's league" that isolates newbies from vets, recommending a number like 1,300 becomes less important for competitive reasons since everyone will be new. Then, they'll learn over time and understand there will be a learning curve when they "graduate" to regular leagues.

The PA recommendation is about right, but it'd be more useful to recommend a per position number. This makes it more actionable for new players. Oh, I need 650 PAs for each position, cool (rather than, ok I need 5,200 between my starters and bench)

This doesn’t take into account the 10% buffer. With that added in, 1,300 IP equals 1,430 give or take. With 1,350, even in Coors, there’s no real chance of a fatigue death spiral unless a team is just completely neglected, and even then, it would happen with 1,600 IP under those same circumstances.

There’s never a reason to draft more than 1,350 IP in an $80m league. 1,300 is very reasonable and only needs more in the most extreme circumstances.

That’s assuming new players draft good pitchers. I’ve seen some guys put pitchers with 7 ERAs IRL in their rotation, and play them on a regular basis. Gotta account for...illogical reasoning

Posted by d_rock97 on 12/9/2020 10:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by just4me on 12/9/2020 12:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ozomatli on 12/8/2020 8:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by just4me on 12/8/2020 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by adlorenz on 12/8/2020 4:17:00 PM (view original):
What should those numbers be in the draft center? Right now its 1500 IP and 6000 PA.

Think of the bottom of the barrel new player, if they didn't know how to use $200k players to soak up innings in blow outs or utilize their AAA's properly... what do you think the recommended IP/PA should be in the draft center.

Thanks!

Adam

1,300 IP and 5,200 PA

With the built in 10% buffer already, that's more than enough for anyone, even without AAA or even if they choose a hitter-friendly park like Coors. That would go a VERY LONG WAY towards helping new owners be competitive from the get go. But if you're afraid that's cutting too close (I don't think it is), you could even add a small note that if they choose a hitter friendly park, they may want to have a little buffer and take another 50-100 IP and 200-400 PA.

This still isn't right, IMO.

1,300 IP for a new player will lead to a ton of fatigue death spirals. The right number should be 1,450 (162 * 9 = 1,458). Adding a note that says expert players go much lower should be enough and give them something to work for. If you combine this with the suggestion of a "beginner's league" that isolates newbies from vets, recommending a number like 1,300 becomes less important for competitive reasons since everyone will be new. Then, they'll learn over time and understand there will be a learning curve when they "graduate" to regular leagues.

The PA recommendation is about right, but it'd be more useful to recommend a per position number. This makes it more actionable for new players. Oh, I need 650 PAs for each position, cool (rather than, ok I need 5,200 between my starters and bench)

This doesn’t take into account the 10% buffer. With that added in, 1,300 IP equals 1,430 give or take. With 1,350, even in Coors, there’s no real chance of a fatigue death spiral unless a team is just completely neglected, and even then, it would happen with 1,600 IP under those same circumstances.

There’s never a reason to draft more than 1,350 IP in an $80m league. 1,300 is very reasonable and only needs more in the most extreme circumstances.

That’s assuming new players draft good pitchers. I’ve seen some guys put pitchers with 7 ERAs IRL in their rotation, and play them on a regular basis. Gotta account for...illogical reasoning

But those poor quality pitchers have extra pitches built in by default. See https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=522636 where I took the literally worst/cheapest 1,300 IP I could into an OL and had no fatigue issues, ended up waiving one and picking up an RP and bringing me to 1,222 IP and still had no fatigue issues (and finished 83-79). I wasn't in Coors, but even in Coors with poor pitchers, unless severely mismanaged (which if is happening would still happen with significantly more IP), you don't need more than 1,350 as a safeguard against fatigue. 1,300 is adequate even in Coors unless you get significantly unlucky with a bunch of extra inning games early on or completely mismanage your staff.

Since the topic of AAA is being discussed:
I think the whole concept of AAA (Rookies in the NBA sim) is ridiculous.

All it is is an unwarranted addition of unfair randomness.
If you get a great AAA draw, you're ahead of the game. I'd you get a poor AAA draw (either quality or quantity wise), you're screwed. Neither is fair.

If i enter a league with Ozomatli, Skunk, Redcped, etc- I want to see which one of us builds the best team within the league rules.. I'm not interested in seeing who can get the luckiest in terms of a random AAA draw.

None of it makes any sense whatsoever to me.

I started playing WIS in the NBA sim and the rookie concept total ruins open leagues. You can't really win at the highest possible percentage unless you build your team with the rookies in mind- yet you screwed if they end up no providing what you need (as far as quality, number of minutes they can play, and position played- getting 'what you need' from your rookie class is much more vital in the NBA sim that MLB imo- I can explain if anyone is interested bit it's not really important to the overall point). You have MUCH more control of your success in leagues without rookies... personally, this is why I dont play in open leagues (I will play in 1 or 2 every 2 years or so just to remember why I hate them) and I HAVE to believe I'm not the only one who chooses not to play open leagues for those very same reasons..

Open leagues are advertised/treated like the place for beginners to start.. If they get screwed by the AAA/rookie draw (which is extremely possible) they're not gonna come back- and that's the main point of this conversation.

Some people LOVE the AAA, YMMV.

I love AAA - I think that they need to be RL names so that everyone, not just veterans who know how to look it up, know who is who. I am ok with the randomness too, though maybe caps on how poor the ratings can be sure be implemented so that it’s more balanced? Each rookie must have minimum x number or rating points (contact/power for hitters, control/velocity for pitchers). Idk what that number should be. But I’ve seen guys that have 14-20 points on every prospect while I have 6-12 on mine. So maybe having a 12-20 window so everyone meets a certain standard?