STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS 2009-10 Topic

juskay
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Posted by andru2797 on 1/4/2011 9:23:00 AM (view original):
Well, to be fair I never claimed Kane & Toews are better than other teams' top players. I claimed, with good reason I believe, that the core GROUP of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith and Seabrook are as good as any other core. If we take the top 4 forwards and 2 defensemen of any other team, I think the Hawks' GROUP stacks up favorably against any of them. Whether they are better is subjective I suppose, but they are AT LEAST comparable.

Chicago - Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook
Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, Letang, Goligoski
Washington - Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Laich, Green, Carlson
Philadelphia - Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Pronger, Timonen
Detroit - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula/Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Rafalski

Also, the goal with which any GM builds his team (except Brian Burke and Darryl Sutter, lol!) is to win the Cup, and players have always been defined as GREAT by their playoff prowess. Both Jonathan Toews and Mike Richards are elite players because of this. Sidney Crosby is the best player in the NHL because he's the total package. I haven't seen Ovechkin carry his team anywhere yet. Same for Stamkos. Putting up points is something alot of players have done well over their careers (remember Craig Janney?). Winning is something very few accomplish.

In addition, the example of Pittsburgh and Washington isn't really fair either, because I did mention that "I don't think there's a team that can match that without having guys in that group on entry-level deals". The Penguins are just as handcuffed as the Hawks are cap wise if you add the top 6 salaries of the team, and so are the Caps. I think the Hawks' spending on their top 4 forwards and top 2 defensemen is just as well, if not better spent than most teams, even with Campbell being overpaid.

Top 6 salaries (not counting goaltenders, approximate numbers)

Penguins: 34.1 million (Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, Michalek, Martin)
Blackhawks: 34.3 (Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, Campbell)
Flyers: 32.4 (Richards, Briere, Carter, Hartnell, Pronger, Timonen)
Red Wings: 31.8 (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Lidstrom, Rafalski)
Capitals: 33.8 (Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Knuble, Green, Poti)

How about the league LEADING CANUCKS CORE???
Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Edler, Raymond, Burrows = 25 million so we get 2 bonus (depth players) Hamuis 4.5 and Ballard 4.2 Total 33.75 mil (Because our cap hit is so low compared to your top teams)

I would take the Canucks core over all but the Penguins.....

If you want to throw in the goalies.......GO FOR IT.

We dump chump Luongo at 10 mil, replace him with Cory Schneider at .900k??  Then we add more depth...........
1/5/2011 1:10 AM
juskay
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Oh, and before you think it????
Hossa is 31, Sharp is 29???.....Sedins are 30 so they wash, Kessler is 26, Raymond 25, Edler 24, Burrows 29....Hamhuis 28 Ballard 28...Schneider 24?
1/5/2011 1:25 AM
andru2797
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juskay, please stop posting after you've been drinking.

The Canucks "core" would not include Mason Raymond. Also, let's compare apples with apples shall we?

CORE PLAYERS: Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Ryan Kesler, Alex Burrows, Dan Hamhuis, Alex Edler - 26.9

Top 6 salaries (not counting goalies): 29.65 million D. Sedin, H. Sedin, Kesler, Hamhuis, Ballard, Bieksa)

Now those numbers compared to the other teams are indeed impressive, however when you factor in that Luongo is eating up more cap space than anyone but the Sedins while giving them subpar performances, I would classify his contract just as bad, if not worse than Brian Campbell's.

If we're gonna play that game, I would have dumped Campbell from the Hawks' top salaries and the 34 million instantly becomes 27, a number much more comparable number  with the Canucks.
1/5/2011 9:11 AM
moy23
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I think the top 6 salaries making up the core is not indicative of the entire picture. Its how the other $25 mil is spent that makes a champion.

I look at Pittsburgh and they have 5 (under 30 yr old) Defensemen locked up long term for under $19 mil... despite spending $18 mil on crosby/malkin. And they have a solid goaltender for 5 more seasons.

I think the flyers did well locking up Giroux for 3 more seasons at $3.75 mil and Bobrovski at 3x$1.75 mil. Both players under age 22. Hartnell is overpaid imo but its only for 2 more seasons... I hope the flyers trade Hartnell like hawks fans hope to unload Campbells remaining 5 yr $7 mil contract.

The hawks still have not re-signed UFA Seabrook yet (which would hurt if they lose him to FA) and after next season when Sharp's contract ends he will be 31 - I bet he gets a big payday just in time for him to decline in production. Its not like Sharp has been a superstar like this season throughout his career.
1/5/2011 12:18 PM
andru2797
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That's why you'll see a difference in the players I mentioned as "core" players for each team, versus the top 6 salary wise.

The Penguins do have 5 defensemen under 30 for at least 2 more seasons, however I hardly think that 5 million for Paul Martin and 4 million for Zbynek Michalek are good long-term investments. They are solid, but when you compare Martin to other 5-5.5 million dollar dmen around the league, he just doesn't stack up.

Seabrook will be signed no problem because I believe he will fall in the 4-4.5 million dollar range in terms of a cap hit.

As for Sharpie, that'll be tough because the right decision I think would be to let him go after next season, however if that means 1 more run at a Cup next year, then that's fine by me.

And speaking of spending the other 25 million, I think Duncan Keith could be classified as a low cap hit at roughly 5.5, when lesser and/or older defensemen are in the 6-7 range. Dave Bolland also provides good value at a cap hit of 3.375 for 3 more seasons, especially if he can meet his offensive potential and score at a more consistent pace, say 50-60 points per season.

The Flyers no doubt made a fantastic decision with Giroux, but Bobrovsky reminds me a little too much of Roman Cechmanek sometimes.
1/5/2011 12:28 PM
juskay
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Posted by andru2797 on 1/5/2011 9:11:00 AM (view original):
juskay, please stop posting after you've been drinking.

The Canucks "core" would not include Mason Raymond. Also, let's compare apples with apples shall we?

CORE PLAYERS: Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Ryan Kesler, Alex Burrows, Dan Hamhuis, Alex Edler - 26.9

Top 6 salaries (not counting goalies): 29.65 million D. Sedin, H. Sedin, Kesler, Hamhuis, Ballard, Bieksa)

Now those numbers compared to the other teams are indeed impressive, however when you factor in that Luongo is eating up more cap space than anyone but the Sedins while giving them subpar performances, I would classify his contract just as bad, if not worse than Brian Campbell's.

If we're gonna play that game, I would have dumped Campbell from the Hawks' top salaries and the 34 million instantly becomes 27, a number much more comparable number  with the Canucks.
You are the one who posted the core numbers (NOT INCLUDING GOALTENDERS).

So NO I was not trying to manipulate the numbers,
1/5/2011 7:07 PM
mudbone1969
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If a hair-pulling ***** like Alex Burrows is a core player, then your core sucks.
1/5/2011 8:53 PM
randle44
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Hair pulling?  or banging transvestites in the back of a limo? while a washed up madden hits you with a little pre ****? 
1/5/2011 9:17 PM
randle44
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oh yea and beating up 84yr old cab drivers for a quarter..ill take Burrows
1/5/2011 9:20 PM
randle44
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and the little f@ggot wears a letter on your team? or  is that sh!t stains from his BF;s a$$ ? i could be mistaken?
1/5/2011 9:23 PM
juskay
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The only stats that matter are POINTS in the standings
Chicago core 42 games played = 45 points....on pace for 89 to 90 points.  last season 90 points put you out of the playoffs by 5 points.  Colorado 8th = 95 points.

Canuck's core 39 games played = 57 points...on pace for 117 points..last season 117 would be second overall.
I will take the Canuck's core anyday.
1/6/2011 1:09 AM
holer
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That's it everyone.  Everybody pack up and go home.  The rest of the season has been cancelled and the Cup has officially been awarded to Vancouver.  The parade's been planned and Gary's been invited over to city hall with Lord Stanley in tow and will publicly give Henrietta a big sloppy wet tongue kiss on the lips, while holding Henrietta's balls in one hand and the Cup in the other.


1/6/2011 7:25 AM
andru2797
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Posted by juskay on 1/6/2011 1:09:00 AM (view original):
The only stats that matter are POINTS in the standings
Chicago core 42 games played = 45 points....on pace for 89 to 90 points.  last season 90 points put you out of the playoffs by 5 points.  Colorado 8th = 95 points.

Canuck's core 39 games played = 57 points...on pace for 117 points..last season 117 would be second overall.
I will take the Canuck's core anyday.
The only stat that matters is Championships. Our core won the Cup last season, where's yours?
1/6/2011 9:43 AM
juskay
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Posted by andru2797 on 1/6/2011 9:43:00 AM (view original):
Posted by juskay on 1/6/2011 1:09:00 AM (view original):
The only stats that matter are POINTS in the standings
Chicago core 42 games played = 45 points....on pace for 89 to 90 points.  last season 90 points put you out of the playoffs by 5 points.  Colorado 8th = 95 points.

Canuck's core 39 games played = 57 points...on pace for 117 points..last season 117 would be second overall.
I will take the Canuck's core anyday.
The only stat that matters is Championships. Our core won the Cup last season, where's yours?

That was a predictable reply...........

1/6/2011 12:13 PM
andru2797
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Posted by juskay on 1/6/2011 12:13:00 PM (view original):
Posted by andru2797 on 1/6/2011 9:43:00 AM (view original):
Posted by juskay on 1/6/2011 1:09:00 AM (view original):
The only stats that matter are POINTS in the standings
Chicago core 42 games played = 45 points....on pace for 89 to 90 points.  last season 90 points put you out of the playoffs by 5 points.  Colorado 8th = 95 points.

Canuck's core 39 games played = 57 points...on pace for 117 points..last season 117 would be second overall.
I will take the Canuck's core anyday.
The only stat that matters is Championships. Our core won the Cup last season, where's yours?

That was a predictable reply...........

Doesn't make it any less true though.

The fact remains that Toews, Kane, Sharp, Hossa, Keith and Seabrook have won a Stanley cup. The Sedins, Kesler, Burrows, Hamhuis, Edler and Luongo have not.

Don't misunderstand me, I did pick the Canucks to finish first in the West and I do believe they are deeper than the Hawks this season. I'm just saying until they win something, those core players cannot be considered "Champions" no matter how many points they and/or the team puts up.

Also, believe me if the Hawks are eliminated, the Canucks will rank high on my list of teams to root for as I think it's time the Cup made it's way back north of the border.
1/6/2011 1:07 PM
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