Wilt did go up against the greatest dynasty in NBA history and the greatest defender in NBA history, and still managed the 2nd highest scoring average ever. To average 30/28 against the greatest defender over 90+ games means you had an even greater level of competition than Jordan or LeBron. If one in 9 players at your position is in the GOAT conversation, and you still average 30 and take one title against a vastly superior team, you’re definitely in the GOAT conversation, if not the GOAT yourself

While there are a few points to refute in that, I'll just stick to one thing. It has been said by Russell, and other players that were on the 2 teams, that he would purposefully go easy for the first part of a game on Wilt. Let him get his points, conserve energy and fouls. But the biggest part of it was mental. As soon as Bill saw Wilt getting too confident/comfortable, he'd turn up the defensive pressure to his best. He said that if he stopped Wilt from scoring a few times in a row after starting hot, it was easy to see him get discouraged and then disengaged. Plus, Wilt didn't like having the ball in the closing minutes of close games because he didn't want to shoot FTs. Also, Wilt had a near-obsession with wanting to never foul out. If he was in foul trouble, he gave guys open looks/drives.
Physically Wilt was bigger and stronger, but he only won title in that 13 seasons of Celtic dominance. Russell was able to use mental games to keep the one guy that could physically dominate him from beating him most times. Russell saw he had his own flaw as being physically outmatched by Wilt, so he corrected that flaw by using Wilt's mental flaws against himself. Wilt never did anything to correct his mental flaws. After he saw a few articles saying he was too selfish on the court, he ignored many easy shots for himself for a whole season so he could lead the league in APG. He changed stuff to get better praise written about him in articles, or he changed what he felt like changing. He rarely did stuff for the betterment of his team. Russell did what it took to win, but usually in a kind way, not the MJ way. He wasn't a religious man, but he always gathered up the guys and asked someone who he knew was devout (Sam was one) to lead a prayer. Anything to be together as a team.
I can't think of anyone that could ever supplant Russell as my #3.

Edit: On a #s note, those insane rebounding numbers back then need to be taken with a grain of salt. Wilt and Russell got 20+PPG, and there were many guys getting over 15RPG because the shooting was horrible. There would still be a bunch of guys getting 22RPG now if everyone was shooting with the same accuracy that they had in 1966. Yeah, Wilt and Russell were great rebounders, but league-wide the number of Rebs available was massively inflated compared to the last... Wow, about 40 years.

@cmc: first you say having a different opinion is uninformed. Then you say you are just stating an opinion and having civil discourse. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth man. You could at least own your intolerant take. Walking it back or pretending you said something different isn’t any better.

Anyway, I am pretty sure I am like the median age here. I am like 10-15 years older than the young heads and like 10-15 younger than old heads.

For my money:

Lebron
Jordan
Kareem
Then can make a case for like five different people.

great stuff from one and all - interesting

Loved all the self evals. Dh’s was especially well written.

Posted by robusk on 3/27/2021 10:58:00 PM (view original):
@cmc: first you say having a different opinion is uninformed. Then you say you are just stating an opinion and having civil discourse. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth man. You could at least own your intolerant take. Walking it back or pretending you said something different isn’t any better.

"Greatest of All Time: 1.Wilt Chamberlin, 2. Jabbar, 3. Nike Jordan, 4. LeBron. To neglect the two giants is silly and less than informed."

My comment is alluding to ESPN and their set of talking heads penchant for
ONLY considering Nike Jordan and LeBron.
To talk about the greatest of all time and not consider Wilt and Jabaar is "silly" (in my OPINION)
To enter into a discussion and not give VERY STRONG consideration to Wilt and Jabaar,
to go along with MJ and LeBron, is a sign that the 'talking head' is uninformed.

These are just my opinions. I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth, or either side of my mouth.
And I'm pretty sure I'm very TOLERANT of differing opinions.
I think there were a few posts extoling Bill Russell's inclusion in the group - and I was tolerent of others for his reference.

I think I was pretty clear in stating my respect and even my desire to hear from others.
And I'm positive I'm not walking anything anywhere.

If your interested I can outline or illustrate my opinions in detail.

Posted by jpevans31 on 3/27/2021 8:03:00 PM (view original):
I like the theme for your team names, NotoriousJ. Great movie.

Thanks man. I was trying to be witty originally based on player names, but this is much more fun!

1. Artis Gilmore
I actually wanted Rodman here, but was talked out of it by some guys. I am much more familiar with new guys and didn't realize Artis had so many seasons of great eFG and 80 defense - this was a great pick.
2. Dennis Rodman
What an awesome start. Gilmore has solid RB and usage, so now I am setup very nicely for a well rounded squad with huge boards.
3. Damian Lillard
Was very happy to get Dame here. Looking back now, I am pretty sure I was thinking my usage deficit was much worse than it really was - I could have gone more efficient, less usage, but this didn't hurt me as far as I can tell.
4. Nikola Vucevic
Again with the usage deficit I thought I had. From pick 6 forward, I then had to play a game of matching weird usage and this was the start of it. Although at this point, I was also really trying to add to my rebound advantage.
5. Kenneth Faried
I really thought I was going to get Brent Barry here and had built a whole plan around it. I needed enough assists from this position at this point (wanted 15+), but also couldn't take on much usage. I thought really hard about Iguodala, but I have dealt with detrimental assist shortages in the past and couldn't do it again. This was a big reach. Also where I apparently completely threw away defense.
6. Russell Westbrook
Really wanted Charlie Ward here (see comments above - I still only had one guard). He went pretty close before me. **** it - Russ has the usage to backup Dame and also adds to my RB advantage. What is happening here lol.
7. Jon Barry
Not sure much needs to be said here after the comments above. This will do and starts to fill out my squads pretty nicely if you forget about defense.
8. Demarcus Cousins
I mentioned above about putting myself in odd usage positions. I have a center who a lot of the time has 25% usage and a PF who goes up to 29%. Boogie has the boards and at this point I decided for total RB domination. He also has some very good seasons (not a lot).
9. TJ McConnell
This might be my worst pick. I wanted to make sure I never went below 70 or 80 AST% on my teams, and he did that for me, but isn't great at anything.
10. DeAndre Ayton
I love this one. I had Boogie slated in on my better teams and Ayton is better in a lot of ways.
11. Charles Dudley
One of the only guys who gave me both the backup assists and rebounding I was looking for. Solid backup minutes if you ignore defense.
12. Gheorghe Muresan
He has really good eFG and there was one team where I really needed his best season.

Without defense, I think my better teams have more impressive numbers than a lot of what I have seen posted. Curious to see how this goes.

The Villans
When trying to assemble a ranking or a group of names for the ‘Greatest of All TIme,’
I think Wilt and Jabbar both suffer tremendously by being THE VILLAN during most of, if not all of their BASKETBALL careers. Both were reviled, while MJ was the NBA cash cow, and LeBron has operated for a great portion of his career as the face of the league.The negativity of coverage and from fans does NOT make Wilt or Jabbar worse or better players, but it definitely hinders them getting their just deserts in subjective debates.

Wilt:
“They cast me as the villain everywhere I went,” Chamberlain told interviewer Ann Ligouri in 1992. “Villains are kind of hard to know on a personal level. You see them as mean, insensitive-type people. Also when you have this great size, sensitivity once again is not given to you.”
Muhammad Ali labeled him, “the world’s largest Uncle Tom.” –

Let’s face it - sportswriters and fans of what was then somewhat of a niche sport (NBA basketball) mostly hated Chamberlin. He was considered selfish and his physical dominance and superiority were probably viewed as unfair. Chamberlin himself coined the perfect quote on him being cast in the black hat:“Nobody roots for Goliath.”The whole Wilt v. Russell debate was really as much a pet project for reporters to disparage Wilt at the time, than it was real debate of who was a better basketball player.

Jabaar
Kareem always had a strained relationship with the press.Well, once he left UCLA he had a negative relationship with the media.He was generally considered to be distant at best; moody- surely- uncooperative- and combative at his worst.KAJ was similar to Wilt in his having an ‘unfair’ height and athletic advantage over his competition.Again, ‘nobody roots for Goliath’.And I’m sure his conversion to Islam did NOT endear him to the league or fans.Until Magic came to be the public persona of the Lakers, Kareem was generally disliked and disparaged by the press.

BOTH guys wore the Black Hat – Both were considered heels – the villan – the GIant

Do you think EITHER guy received a favorable whistle?LOL

NEITHER Wilt nor Jabaar received the ‘CASH COW TREATMENT’ that was afforded to Bird – Magic – Nike Jordan – Kobe – LeBron

My point is not to say they were BETTER (although I do think they are),
It is to illustrate that when comparing and contrasting,
there is an obvious dark cloud that hangs over the heads of both Wilt and Jabbar.

Posted by jpevans31 on 3/27/2021 8:03:00 PM (view original):
I like the theme for your team names, NotoriousJ. Great movie.

This makes me nervous. I was going to go with characters from a specific movie.

Posted by 20ks on 3/28/2021 12:12:00 AM (view original):

Posted by jpevans31 on 3/27/2021 8:03:00 PM (view original):
I like the theme for your team names, NotoriousJ. Great movie.

This makes me nervous. I was going to go with characters from a specific movie.

Go for it. I used one tv show for my names.

Posted by bds9992 on 3/27/2021 10:10:00 PM (view original):
Wilt did go up against the greatest dynasty in NBA history and the greatest defender in NBA history, and still managed the 2nd highest scoring average ever. To average 30/28 against the greatest defender over 90+ games means you had an even greater level of competition than Jordan or LeBron. If one in 9 players at your position is in the GOAT conversation, and you still average 30 and take one title against a vastly superior team, you’re definitely in the GOAT conversation, if not the GOAT yourself

Besides Wilt Chamberlain, the 1966-67 Philadelphia 76ers also had Hal Greer (10 X All-Star, 7 X All-NBA, Hall of Fame), Chet Walker (7 X All-Star and Hall of Fame), Billy Cunningham (5 X All-Star and Hall of Fame) and Larry Costello (6 X All-Star). Philadelphia went 68-13 that year, while Boston went 60-21 while Bill Russell was adjusting to being the head coach of the Celtics while still playing over 40 minutes a game. And you want to say that Boston was a vastly superior team that year?

By the way, Wilt's all time record against Russell was 58-84.

The year that Wilt averaged over 50 points a game was the 1961-62 season. These were centers that played the most minutes for their teams that season:

Wilt Chamberlain 7' 1" 275 pounds
Bill Russell 6' 10" 215
Red Kerr 6' 9" 230
Phil Jordon 6' 10" 205
Jim Krebs 6' 8" 230
Wayne Embry 6' 8" 240
Bob Ferry 6' 8" 230
Clyde Lovellette 6' 9" 234
Walt Bellamy 6' 11" 225

Hey, it's Walt Bellamy, he was pretty good right? He played for the Chicago Packers that year. They went 18-62. Most of these guys give Wilt a 4 or 5 inch height advantage and anywhere from a 35 to 70 pound advantage.

Are these the greater level of competition that Wilt faced?

The big surprise is not that Wilt averaged 50.4 points a game, but that he barely shot 50% from the field.

I think cmcafeeky"s mother could score on most of these guys.

I had to read that three times.....

just as long as it was NOT: "Most of these guys could score with cmcafeeky's mother"
just as long as it was NOT: "Most of these guys could score with cmcafeeky's mother."...

my mother was a 16 year old cheerleader in '62
damn it Midge... just damn it.. you scared the hell out of me there at first glance
LOL
would be worried about Mom if she was hooping in the NBA back then
especailly considering Wilt the Stilt slept with 20,000 women....
assume that how he got the nickname the 'BIG DIPPER'