Almersk - You seem determined to continue this conversation and you have clearly put your stake in the ground as to your stance. None of your posts have been rude or inappropriate so no concerns from me if you carry on this debate but just curious for the record, do you know Cimmy/Doogan/Robinhood personally?

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/11/2022 4:38:00 AM (view original):
I feel like if CS outed 5 unknown users or coaches that were not long term successful coaches, no one would skip a beat and we’d not even be discussing this. But since it is some long term members, some are bringing a personal element into it. Is that the right way to look at things? Is what we all have to ask ourselves

I agree...

Because of this, i've been asked to hold contradictory thoughts in my head, such as:

1. This redshirt thing isn't cheating.
2. Swenske deserves his punishment because he cheated 665 times.
3. Someone who did this only 59 or 97 times is being unfairly punished, because it's not cheating.
4. The respected members dont deserve punishment, cuz they came on here to discuss things, but even those from the respected group who didnt apologize should not be punished.
5. But none of those from the respected group should be punished cuz the redshirt thing wasnt cheating.
6. Swenske didnt show up here to discuss things, so he should be punished for cheating.
7. The mob won because historic records were erased.
8. The words "mob rules" can be incorrectly repeated by everyone an infinite amount of times.
9. Using the word "cheating" is a gross injustice, but Swenske should be punished cuz he cheated.

I mean, i dont rrally care at this point. Just please dont ask me to accept Rube Goldberg excuses and nod my head like a dunce.

Ultimately, Swenske overplayed a bug that provided an enormous advantage. Unfortunately, and unexpectedly, a group of good guys were also exploiting that same bug. Punishment is removal of their historic records, which some here may or may not find unfair.

And i honestly hope the good guys continue playing. i do love the idea of a group of family and friends competing in the same conference. I've asked my brother and cousins a bunch of times to join me, but they arent interested.

Posted by texashick on 11/11/2022 1:07:00 PM (view original):
Almersk - You seem determined to continue this conversation and you have clearly put your stake in the ground as to your stance. None of your posts have been rude or inappropriate so no concerns from me if you carry on this debate but just curious for the record, do you know Cimmy/Doogan/Robinhood personally?

TC, I appreciate you acknowledging that I have not been rude or inappropriate. Sometimes, a spirited defense can be misconstrued.You have also IMHO exercised reason and thoughtfulness in your posts.

Yes, I know these guys. As I've stated several times, I know them to be people of integrity. I know them well enough to say that with confidence. I'm glad to hear NPB say that he loves "the idea of a group of family and friends competing in the same conference." So do I! (Or at least I did). I was starting to wonder if it was a crime around here haha. But that's why I'm going hard in the paint. It's frustrating to read the gratuitous labeling, as if there's no nuance here. I knew about the action. I kind of forgot about it because it wasn't stressed to me as some awesome trick. It's fair to take the view that "they should have known better". It's also fair to take the view that they didn't know how many people knew about it, just like the people who knew that all Internationals accept a redshirt, which none of us knew about until this whole thing. What I, personally, do not find fair is that it seems that the status of cheaters/non-cheaters is dependent on some completely arbitrary threshold of how many users know about the "exploit" and where in that timeline the "discovery" lies. And again, I have no problem if people are skeptical but I find it really ugly for people to drag them with labels. I also think the punishment was absurdly excessive, but that's coming from someone who "knows" they didn't think they were cheating. I'm also ****** that Robinhood had his Hillsdale team taken and scrubbed. I've been at Gannon for 27 of his almost 100 seasons. There's history there for him and all of his historical conference mates. The same goes for cimmy and doogan and their conference mates. These guys were my mentors and it just feels unnecessarily punitive, like they're pariahs. But now I'm rambling and beating a dead horse so I'll stop now. To answer your question, TC, yes I know them.

Posted by npb7768 on 11/11/2022 1:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/11/2022 4:38:00 AM (view original):
I feel like if CS outed 5 unknown users or coaches that were not long term successful coaches, no one would skip a beat and we’d not even be discussing this. But since it is some long term members, some are bringing a personal element into it. Is that the right way to look at things? Is what we all have to ask ourselves

I agree...

Because of this, i've been asked to hold contradictory thoughts in my head, such as:

1. This redshirt thing isn't cheating.
2. Swenske deserves his punishment because he cheated 665 times.
3. Someone who did this only 59 or 97 times is being unfairly punished, because it's not cheating.
4. The respected members dont deserve punishment, cuz they came on here to discuss things, but even those from the respected group who didnt apologize should not be punished.
5. But none of those from the respected group should be punished cuz the redshirt thing wasnt cheating.
6. Swenske didnt show up here to discuss things, so he should be punished for cheating.
7. The mob won because historic records were erased.
8. The words "mob rules" can be incorrectly repeated by everyone an infinite amount of times.
9. Using the word "cheating" is a gross injustice, but Swenske should be punished cuz he cheated.

I mean, i dont rrally care at this point. Just please dont ask me to accept Rube Goldberg excuses and nod my head like a dunce.

Ultimately, Swenske overplayed a bug that provided an enormous advantage. Unfortunately, and unexpectedly, a group of good guys were also exploiting that same bug. Punishment is removal of their historic records, which some here may or may not find unfair.

And i honestly hope the good guys continue playing. i do love the idea of a group of family and friends competing in the same conference. I've asked my brother and cousins a bunch of times to join me, but they arent interested.

I love all of this, I stopped commenting on these threads days ago because there's just too much collective dissonance swimming around here for me to try to untangle.

Temple and St. Joes are in the final four and favorites to meet in the title game. WIS missed on this part of the resolution........and yes, I'm salty because the owls beat me to advance to the final four

what does is say that two sim teams can get to the final four? They are stud sim teams no doubt, but what I have learned is you basically need to sign stud recruits, and then set and forget your game plan since sims presumably do not adjust their game plan from game to game. Seems like the "coaching" aspect of HD is a bit overrated which kind of bums me out a bit. I thought my game plans/ distribution changes, etc affected the games moreso than they apparently do.

are those both sim teams now as a result of all this? kinda crazy the sims are taking all these teams on such runs. speaks to the base competancy of the simai on the coaching front, i forget what thread that was from but it came up recently...

is one of those teams doogan's? i know not everyone agrees these guys got bent over pulp fiction style, particularly doogan, but if sim ai revenge wins a title on their behalf, that would be pretty epic. even without the title, these runs... well played universe.

on a serious note... this has to be a simulation, right? or something along those lines? too much hilarious trolling on the part of the universe for random chance, it seems.

Posted by gillispie on 11/14/2022 11:55:00 AM (view original):
are those both sim teams now as a result of all this? kinda crazy the sims are taking all these teams on such runs. speaks to the base competancy of the simai on the coaching front, i forget what thread that was from but it came up recently...

is one of those teams doogan's? i know not everyone agrees these guys got bent over pulp fiction style, particularly doogan, but if sim ai revenge wins a title on their behalf, that would be pretty epic. even without the title, these runs... well played universe.

on a serious note... this has to be a simulation, right? or something along those lines? too much hilarious trolling on the part of the universe for random chance, it seems.

Base competency? Nah. Sim is running the same settings and distribution that the former coaches left it on (which is why these teams aren't featuring big men jacking up 3FGAs in the past dozen games, like other sim controlled teams). If it shows anything other than the quality hoarded by these teams using their recruiting methods, it is the value of getting some nice sim-aided battle-roll juice in the post-season. ;)

ohhh good point shoe. interesting

Posted by crabman26 on 11/14/2022 11:54:00 AM (view original):
what does is say that two sim teams can get to the final four? They are stud sim teams no doubt, but what I have learned is you basically need to sign stud recruits, and then set and forget your game plan since sims presumably do not adjust their game plan from game to game. Seems like the "coaching" aspect of HD is a bit overrated which kind of bums me out a bit. I thought my game plans/ distribution changes, etc affected the games moreso than they apparently do.

i have gotten kind of **** on in the past for saying this but half or perhaps most of the value of game planning is the corresponding game analysis half where you build understanding of what is happening in the sim engine. its the educational value. i don't know of any other way to build familiarity with the sim engine than to spend time analyzing games before the sim and then reflecting after.

most of my best teams, i don't end up changing very much game over game. but the game planning insights are critical to nailing that base team setup. but i've also had a bunch of teams - especially the non-press ones (press is more set and forget) - where i have changed things pretty darn substantially game over game. i've even had press teams where i ran 4 or 5 different starting lines throughout a NT run. it depends on your team and the opponent.

its definitely common for folks to over game plan and end up hurting themselves. rule of thumb, play your team first and the other team a distant second. sometimes our team comp is such that we can afford to rotate things around a bunch of ways at very little self cost, against an anonymous opponent. sometimes our team comp is not that way and we more or less get locked into a setup.

Posted by crabman26 on 11/14/2022 11:54:00 AM (view original):
what does is say that two sim teams can get to the final four? They are stud sim teams no doubt, but what I have learned is you basically need to sign stud recruits, and then set and forget your game plan since sims presumably do not adjust their game plan from game to game. Seems like the "coaching" aspect of HD is a bit overrated which kind of bums me out a bit. I thought my game plans/ distribution changes, etc affected the games moreso than they apparently do.

I wouldnt take too much away from this run. These are very, very talented teams. St Joes has the 1, 5, 29, 30, 67, 105, and 115 players on the big board. Temple also has 7 players in the top 100 AND a full 12 man roster with a ridiculous 93 and 89 DEF and ATH team average. Unlike almost all SIMAI teams, the settings were set up by smart coaches and the sim is just running what was previously setup. Temple gets a huge boost most simai teams dont in that they are fixed on uptempo with that incredibly deep roster.

Posted by texashick on 11/14/2022 1:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by crabman26 on 11/14/2022 11:54:00 AM (view original):
what does is say that two sim teams can get to the final four? They are stud sim teams no doubt, but what I have learned is you basically need to sign stud recruits, and then set and forget your game plan since sims presumably do not adjust their game plan from game to game. Seems like the "coaching" aspect of HD is a bit overrated which kind of bums me out a bit. I thought my game plans/ distribution changes, etc affected the games moreso than they apparently do.

I wouldnt take too much away from this run. These are very, very talented teams. St Joes has the 1, 5, 29, 30, 67, 105, and 115 players on the big board. Temple also has 7 players in the top 100 AND a full 12 man roster with a ridiculous 93 and 89 DEF and ATH team average. Unlike almost all SIMAI teams, the settings were set up by smart coaches and the sim is just running what was previously setup. Temple gets a huge boost most simai teams dont in that they are fixed on uptempo with that incredibly deep roster.

Temple is actually only playing 11, and one of those is getting minimal minutes, even in uptempo, mostly because that's how triangle/man plays. Duke is the deeper team, from a depth/stamina perspective, and also slightly more talented up top by my ratings. I'd expect a close game, and probably a pretty even split in 10 simulations, if doogan were still coaching.

What raises eyebrows for me, and points a bit in the direction of some battle roll juice (or luck, what have you) is that if doogan were coaching, the setting would likely have been +1 or +2, not -2. -2 and uptempo should have been pretty damaging; and maybe it was - but I have a hard time buying that Temple is 10-12 points better than Duke, and could just withstand that 6-8 point mistake.

Posted by shoe3 on 11/14/2022 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by texashick on 11/14/2022 1:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by crabman26 on 11/14/2022 11:54:00 AM (view original):
what does is say that two sim teams can get to the final four? They are stud sim teams no doubt, but what I have learned is you basically need to sign stud recruits, and then set and forget your game plan since sims presumably do not adjust their game plan from game to game. Seems like the "coaching" aspect of HD is a bit overrated which kind of bums me out a bit. I thought my game plans/ distribution changes, etc affected the games moreso than they apparently do.

I wouldnt take too much away from this run. These are very, very talented teams. St Joes has the 1, 5, 29, 30, 67, 105, and 115 players on the big board. Temple also has 7 players in the top 100 AND a full 12 man roster with a ridiculous 93 and 89 DEF and ATH team average. Unlike almost all SIMAI teams, the settings were set up by smart coaches and the sim is just running what was previously setup. Temple gets a huge boost most simai teams dont in that they are fixed on uptempo with that incredibly deep roster.

Temple is actually only playing 11, and one of those is getting minimal minutes, even in uptempo, mostly because that's how triangle/man plays. Duke is the deeper team, from a depth/stamina perspective, and also slightly more talented up top by my ratings. I'd expect a close game, and probably a pretty even split in 10 simulations, if doogan were still coaching.

What raises eyebrows for me, and points a bit in the direction of some battle roll juice (or luck, what have you) is that if doogan were coaching, the setting would likely have been +1 or +2, not -2. -2 and uptempo should have been pretty damaging; and maybe it was - but I have a hard time buying that Temple is 10-12 points better than Duke, and could just withstand that 6-8 point mistake.

All of this...although I actually thought they were deeper than us, I thought their bench was head and shoulders above our. When I was game planning, it seemed like all of there top ten players were ranked in the top 5 at their position coming out of HS (or at lease it felt that way with their talent level.) The funny thing is, we beat them when doogan was there earlier this season (albeit an exhibition game, but still). Then we lose to the sim.

I should be clear though, definitely not calling that a screw job or anything. The Temple team that exists is very good. I personally don't love that it's competing in the tournament and taking credits away from users, being assembled using tactics found worthy of removal/scrub; but that is what it is, I guess.

Yes these are elite teams that are deserving of being there as far as numbers go. But as far as ethics, it shows me the power of the recruiting benefit is stronger than game planning, which we all knew anyways. Nothing to see here really except for they are two stud teams destroying the rest of the smith world for the last time.

i was hoping to play one of them, but I got surprisingly destroyed last night in the E8. I expected a loss was possible. But we got beat down bad. Oh well. Smith will never be the same going forward. In a good way.