The Mad Scientist Top 25 Ranking Debate Topic

So, we can say:
Coaching:
Redshirts:
Walkons:
Depth:
Stamina(Has an effect, but not a coequal one)
Game pace:(Effects depth issues)
Where specific ratings are located within the average; a given average could describe two very different teams.

These all directly affect the game, but I say if you can't quantify it, it doesn't matter. Part of the reason I'm using overall rating is workload here, especially if I'm just currently surmising all of this out of the goodness of my heart. You've got to understand how much work would go into the "ideal" situation that you guys want to see and I think largely if all of those things were included in an overall rating, you'd be griping about X, Y, and Z that such and such is weighted too much, rated too lowly, etc...and I'm trying to avoid these nonsensical crap arguments
12/23/2009 9:34 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By acn24 on 12/23/2009
I think this is probably the best post in the last 15 pages. Ultimately we're arguing a moot point, as 1) I doubt WIS/Fox will pay an outside person to develop one part of this game Probably not, I'm willing to be fair though, I wouldn't try to break their bank. I'm not exactly on the Christmas card list either lol. - and 2) I highly doubt that admin will allow somebody access as deep into the code to allow colonels to get the completely concrete ratings that would be required to make his system work. I'm not even asking for that kind of access. My ranking system is rather simple and wouldn't be that hard to program in for someone who knows what they're doing. I think all of the adjustments I'd like to make to overall rating and to whatever rankings I'm trying to "change" would at most be a day long project, or should be says me lol.

In addition to wondering how to account for IQs, FTs are also a rating that isn't factored to the numerical ratings, but greatly impacts game play. Could work this is like I suggested about IQ...13 letter grades....divy it up so that A+ = 100 and F = 0 The system would also have to weigh how much players play (what if a team has 9 850 players and 3 250 walk-ons? Their team avg. is 700, but assuming that the 9 scholarship players can and do play 98+% of the minutes, they may be clearly the best team in the country). Amount of minutes played is very key in this instance, probably too much legwork for me to do for 900+ teams, but something I'll most certainly do for my team and those that ask and provide the information I'll try as well.

In addition to needing to know how to weigh each rating for each position you would need to track how many minutes each player PLAYS at each position. For example, if you have a PF whose A/SPD/REB/LP/PE/BH/P is 50/65/60/55/60/45/45 - he may rate as a low talented PF, but if he only plays SF, he may rate as extremely talented. Given the amount that coaches don't play players at their listed position, this is an important distinction. I disagree, if you accept them all as equally important to the game and recognize that they all have purpose, then you don't have to dabble in this kind of stuff. Not only is it extremely subjective, I wouldn't feel comfortable weighting the ratings, because I would never do that on my teams to begin with.

12/23/2009 9:41 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By arssanguinus on 12/23/2009One little note 'in his defense', although not really.

At least from what I was gathering, he was talking about using the team ratings to rank SOS, not overall teams. However, if it can't rank overall teams accurately, I don't see how it can measure SOS accurately.

Now see, here's an example presumably of a guy that wasn't getting it before, but is now, so some weren't understanding it. Not trying to make an *** out of you or anything arss (ironic lol) just making a point to something you brought up. Overall ratings aren't currently perfect, but they're not terrible/far off either.
12/23/2009 9:43 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By metsmax on 12/23/2009


It is discouraging when folks treat the forum as a contest and an exercise in personalities rather than responding to the substance of what is said. I've responded with substance since the word go and have addressed all of your points at one time or another in this thread. I thought it was pointless for me to repeat myself because you're too lazy to read the 15 pages or so that this thread entails. Either you keep up or you don't, but don't claim that something happened just because you're behind the curve. Also FWIW, people are getting all pissy with me and challenging me and my concept, I'M NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN HERE, not when I believe in something so strongly. I admitted the overalls need work and have made suggestions how to fix them...if you choose not to see it mets, then I can't help you.

IF the proposition has evolved into - "it may be possible to do a better job of ranking teams if one took skill ratings, IQ, suitability of those ratings for the scheme run, depth, FT ratings, etc into account to develop a measure of team strength" then no one should disagree. I think in the grand scheme of things, that kind of ranking is WAY TOO COMPLEX, and you guys would be ******** about it more than what you've argued against my suggestions to date. Of course, I think thats a big jump from a (summary paraphrase here) just look at total ratings points approach. I also think that it would be very difficult to pursue the italicized concept and that there is no chance WIS will do so. Its unlikely but not impossible until I'm told otherwise. I won't necessarily stop this crusade if they say they won't pay for my ideas.
12/23/2009 9:48 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 12/23/2009

***Another thing that DOES play a factor, whether it can be quantified or not, IS the coaches of the teams in question. Like it or not, able to quantify it or not, some coaches are just BETTER at this game than others. I agree that this is true. I consider myself to be a pretty decent coach, but I could name about 50 coaches who I think would beat me even if I had the 750 team and they the 700. I believe I am in this boat too, but to a greater degree. I know a lot of people have a problem with this premise, but I say if you can't quantify it then it doesn't belong. ***

colonels, to me, this alone is enough to invalidate the rest. Coaching is an absolutely enormous part of the equation. And even moreso at DI, because you'll have some outstanding coaches at low or mid programs that simply have no chance to recruit the same level of talent as mediocre BCS coaches.

This aspect plays a huge role in how good a team actually is, and if it can't be included, imho that is a fatal flaw. You'd be taking a team's roster/talent irregardless of coach, and looking at that roster rather than its results.

The teams with the better rosters/talent/core ratings SHOULD win against those with worse rosters/talent/core ratings, yes or no?

If you say coach quality matters, measure it and get back to me. The fact of the matter is that no coach recruits, coaches, etc the exact same way they do from one season to the next. You say it matters, put money to mouth. Coaching gets you the Ws and Ls that you apply to that overall rating SOS afterwards.

I also thinks its funny that you conveniently out the rest of my paragraph which said this... I think usually the good coaches are going to have the better rosters and win more games per se anyhow, thus I think inherently you're going to get rewarded more in a system like this because the good coaches will have more talented rosters GENERALLY than the average boob....thus you're doing nothing more than piece-mealing my argument and attempting to argue against what you want to and not necessarily what my argument is.
12/23/2009 9:52 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 12/23/2009

***Another thing that DOES play a factor, whether it can be quantified or not, IS the coaches of the teams in question. Like it or not, able to quantify it or not, some coaches are just BETTER at this game than others. I agree that this is true. I consider myself to be a pretty decent coach, but I could name about 50 coaches who I think would beat me even if I had the 750 team and they the 700. I believe I am in this boat too, but to a greater degree. I know a lot of people have a problem with this premise, but I say if you can't quantify it then it doesn't belong. ***

colonels, to me, this alone is enough to invalidate the rest. Coaching is an absolutely enormous part of the equation. And even moreso at DI, because you'll have some outstanding coaches at low or mid programs that simply have no chance to recruit the same level of talent as mediocre BCS coaches.

This aspect plays a huge role in how good a team actually is, and if it can't be included, imho that is a fatal flaw. You'd be taking a team's roster/talent irregardless of coach, and looking at that roster rather than its results.

The teams with the better rosters/talent/core ratings SHOULD win against those with worse rosters/talent/core ratings, yes or no? No they shouldn't. To say that the better talented team on paper should always win is leaving out so many things.

If you say coach quality matters, measure it and get back to me. The fact of the matter is that no coach recruits, coaches, etc the exact same way they do from one season to the next. You say it matters, put money to mouth. Coaching gets you the Ws and Ls that you apply to that overall rating SOS afterwards.

I also thinks its funny that you conveniently out the rest of my paragraph which said this... I think usually the good coaches are going to have the better rosters and win more games per se anyhow, thus I think inherently you're going to get rewarded more in a system like this because the good coaches will have more talented rosters GENERALLY than the average boob....thus you're doing nothing more than piece-mealing my argument and attempting to argue against what you want to and not necessarily what my argument is.

And please do stop using the word boob to describe people, it really makes you look immature.
12/23/2009 9:58 AM
The ironic thing is that you are telling all of us that we don't understand anything that you are saying, when in reality it is you who can't even being to understand the things we are saying back to you.
12/23/2009 9:59 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/23/2009
The ironic thing is that you are telling all of us that we don't understand anything that you are saying, when in reality it is you who can't even being to understand the things we are saying back to you.

I understand, debated, and even conceded some of your points...I'm just saying and have said since the beginning, if you can't quantify it, it doesn't belong in a/my ranking system. Because we disagree doesn't mean that I don't understand you or your arguments, or the fact that you claimed 370 seasons is a small sample size.
12/23/2009 10:10 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/23/2009

The ironic thing is that you are telling all of us that we don't understand anything that you are saying, when in reality it is you who can't even being to understand the things we are saying back to you.

I understand, debated, and even conceded some of your points...I'm just saying and have said since the beginning, if you can't quantify it, it doesn't belong in a/my ranking system. Because we disagree doesn't mean that I don't understand you or your arguments, or the fact that you claimed 370 seasons is a small sample size
But when we disagree it means we don't understand yours? Solid.
12/23/2009 10:15 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By acn24 on 12/23/2009

In addition to needing to know how to weigh each rating for each position you would need to track how many minutes each player PLAYS at each position. For example, if you have a PF whose A/SPD/REB/LP/PE/BH/P is 50/65/60/55/60/45/45 - he may rate as a low talented PF, but if he only plays SF, he may rate as extremely talented. Given the amount that coaches don't play players at their listed position, this is an important distinction. I disagree, if you accept them all as equally important to the game and recognize that they all have purpose, then you don't have to dabble in this kind of stuff. Not only is it extremely subjective, I wouldn't feel comfortable weighting the ratings, because I would never do that on my teams to begin with.

But I don't see how you can accept them all as equal. That is what people are saying...if you have played this game very long, you see that some ratings are much more important than others, and what makes a great C is vastly different than a great PG. If you have 12 players who are all 70/95/5/90/5/80/85/85 (A/SPD/REB/DE/LP/PE/BH/P), then you have a tremendous amount of talent but you aren't going to be a very good team, you will get killed on the boards. That player is a great PG, but a horrible C.

It is clear that some ratings are more important than others (ATH/SPD for example - since it impacts the game on offense and defense), and that is why you would need to see the code - you need to be able to weight all the skills, and you would need to see EXACTLY how much more valuable ATH/SPD is than LP/PE. Otherwise you are just guessing, or if you assume that everything is of the same value, it is a flawed premise.
12/23/2009 10:21 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/23/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/23/2009

The ironic thing is that you are telling all of us that we don't understand anything that you are saying, when in reality it is you who can't even being to understand the things we are saying back to you.

I understand, debated, and even conceded some of your points...I'm just saying and have said since the beginning, if you can't quantify it, it doesn't belong in a/my ranking system. Because we disagree doesn't mean that I don't understand you or your arguments, or the fact that you claimed 370 seasons is a small sample size.
But when we disagree it means we don't understand yours? Solid
Nope, many of you have made comments that made it rather clear that you didn't completely understand my concept...I had to explain it to aintheb as late as 3 pages ago.
12/23/2009 10:28 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/23/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 12/23/2009

The ironic thing is that you are telling all of us that we don't understand anything that you are saying, when in reality it is you who can't even being to understand the things we are saying back to you.

I understand, debated, and even conceded some of your points...I'm just saying and have said since the beginning, if you can't quantify it, it doesn't belong in a/my ranking system. Because we disagree doesn't mean that I don't understand you or your arguments, or the fact that you claimed 370 seasons is a small sample size.
But when we disagree it means we don't understand yours? Solid.
Nope, many of you have made comments that made it rather clear that you didn't completely understand my concept...I had to explain it to aintheb as late as 3 pages ago
No, you continued to explain it because you believed that we did not understand it based on our harsh disapproval for your idea.
12/23/2009 10:32 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 12/23/2009

***Another thing that DOES play a factor, whether it can be quantified or not, IS the coaches of the teams in question. Like it or not, able to quantify it or not, some coaches are just BETTER at this game than others. I agree that this is true. I consider myself to be a pretty decent coach, but I could name about 50 coaches who I think would beat me even if I had the 750 team and they the 700. I believe I am in this boat too, but to a greater degree. I know a lot of people have a problem with this premise, but I say if you can't quantify it then it doesn't belong. ***

colonels, to me, this alone is enough to invalidate the rest. Coaching is an absolutely enormous part of the equation. And even moreso at DI, because you'll have some outstanding coaches at low or mid programs that simply have no chance to recruit the same level of talent as mediocre BCS coaches.

This aspect plays a huge role in how good a team actually is, and if it can't be included, imho that is a fatal flaw. You'd be taking a team's roster/talent irregardless of coach, and looking at that roster rather than its results.

The teams with the better rosters/talent/core ratings SHOULD win against those with worse rosters/talent/core ratings, yes or no?

If you say coach quality matters, measure it and get back to me. The fact of the matter is that no coach recruits, coaches, etc the exact same way they do from one season to the next. You say it matters, put money to mouth. Coaching gets you the Ws and Ls that you apply to that overall rating SOS afterwards.

I also thinks its funny that you conveniently out the rest of my paragraph which said this... I think usually the good coaches are going to have the better rosters and win more games per se anyhow, thus I think inherently you're going to get rewarded more in a system like this because the good coaches will have more talented rosters GENERALLY than the average boob....thus you're doing nothing more than piece-mealing my argument and attempting to argue against what you want to and not necessarily what my argument is.

1. No, that is my point. A team with better ratings very often does not beat the team with lesser ratings, for a variety of reasons that have been covered ad nauseum in this thread. You need to stop saying that.

2. Coach quality is measured by the W/L and rpi. Success rather ratings.

The problem is that you have a very integral part that doesn't fit neatly into your system, so you're attempting to simply chuck it out with the bathwater.

3. I did not conveniently leave that part out, I actually addressed it in my response. (And regardless, that doesn't make the problem go away.)

4. You referred to aintheb's "not understanding" your premise because he showed the conference standings/ratings. Quite obviously, he does not think it should be perfectly aligned, nor does he think that's exactly what you're talking about. Either you didn't understand his point, or you were pretending to be dense so that you didn't have to address it appropriately.

But his point -- and it was a very valid one -- is that there was a complete disconnect between team ratings and how well teams had performed during the course of the season. And with that being the case, it just further showed that team ratings are not an effective tool for deciding which teams are good and which aren't.
12/23/2009 10:35 AM
how did what was a constructive thread turn into 20 pages of ****?

at the risk of repeating what was said, i think we all agree that in a single game, overall rating is a poor indicator of who will win. a 50 points overall rating difference can easily go the other way, or given equal overall ratings, one team can be in the ballpark of a 98% favorite.

but, in a long term sense, overall rating is a somewhat reasonable measure. on average, the 620 rated d2 team is better than the 600 rated d2 team. despite the countless counter examples, it is not a useless measure. consider the OR ratings for d1 teams. they are based purely off per-player overall rating and class, and have proven a fairly accurate indicator of the quality of a team.

using overall ratings in rankings before the season started is fairly reasonable to me. its the easy way out, the cop out, but if that component is going to 0 by season's end, its largely irrelevant. using overall ratings to me is step 1. step 2 is throw out the highly useless in-game ratings; dur, work ethic, lp/sb for guards, per (maybe) and bh for bigs. step 3 is to actually rank players in an intelligent manner. i used to use a recruiting program to rank players to save me time, and i came up with fairly complex formulas to rank each player, that ranked them within a small margin of how well i could rank them, in most cases. this is where i think WIS should be - step 3, actually assign the players a score based on their quality. but, if they are busy, i think step 2 would be acceptable. step 1 is just too ****** and its too easy to get to step 2.

to me, step 4 is ranking players more than 1 way. for example, how do you rank a shooting point guard vs a non shooting point guard? the best equations for one are less valid for the other. what about at the small forward position? its a tough problem. you have to guess who will play where, assume some level of coaching prowess to put the right guy in the right place, and rank accordingly. i think this is too hard for WIS to undertake. also, i don't think simply being the programmer of the game is enough to do it competently. this is not a knock on seble, but as a guy with internal code knowledge, if he couldn't come out and beat the likes of OR and lostmyth, he probably lacks the working knowledge to undertake step 4. so, step 4 is the last place i think WIS should be, on the rankings.

step 5 is incorporating synergy between players and the system at hand. this is to me essentially as complex as writing the sim engine. however, if you write a decent coach to set appropriate ratings for a team, and simulate them all against each other, you can approximate doing step 5 the real way. a clever programmer could do this way faster than step 4, so, to me that is the ultimate ranking system. writing a decent coach is easier than it sounds, it can be done optimally without understanding the sim engine in the slightest. you just have to cleverly pit pseduo random strategies against each other until some emerge as better, and then further randomize off of that and repeat.
12/23/2009 12:37 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 12/23/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By metsmax on 12/23/2009



It is discouraging when folks treat the forum as a contest and an exercise in personalities rather than responding to the substance of what is said. I've responded with substance since the word go and have addressed all of your points at one time or another in this thread. I thought it was pointless for me to repeat myself because you're too lazy to read the 15 pages or so that this thread entails. Either you keep up or you don't, but don't claim that something happened just because you're behind the curve. Also FWIW, people are getting all pissy with me and challenging me and my concept, I'M NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN HERE, not when I believe in something so strongly. I admitted the overalls need work and have made suggestions how to fix them...if you choose not to see it mets, then I can't help you.

IF the proposition has evolved into - "it may be possible to do a better job of ranking teams if one took skill ratings, IQ, suitability of those ratings for the scheme run, depth, FT ratings, etc into account to develop a measure of team strength" then no one should disagree. I think in the grand scheme of things, that kind of ranking is WAY TOO COMPLEX, and you guys would be ******** about it more than what you've argued against my suggestions to date. Of course, I think thats a big jump from a (summary paraphrase here) just look at total ratings points approach. I also think that it would be very difficult to pursue the italicized concept and that there is no chance WIS will do so. Its unlikely but not impossible until I'm told otherwise. I won't necessarily stop this crusade if they say they won't pay for my ideas.
1. no you didnt answer

2. if you did, you didnt understand

3. it does not advance discussion to call others lazy or boobs

4. all caps insistence that you will not stop does not advance the cause of truth or understanding

5. would you stop if they offered to pay you to stop?

manners and respect for others matter - I do not appreciate being attacked ad hominem by someone who has demonstrated that his arguments are inferior. your approach colonel inhibits progress, personalizes all discussion and subverts attempts to find agreement

enjoy your rants, understand that extremism in the cause of stubborn ignorance is not a virtue and continue to launch unprovoked personal attacks

and have a very merry christmas
12/23/2009 12:37 PM
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