Upcoming Release - NEW SPREADSHEET Topic

colonels19
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What's to be confused about...read all the posts in this thread. Yes you directly addressed the concerns HOWEVER, what you fail to realize is that a minor tweak turned into a major project that, quite frankly, looks like the ultimate downfall of the NBA sim. I mean really, how can you not have a player with a 100 D rating/stop%...whatever the hell we're calling it now. Also I question the incorporation of stop% since it suggests that defensive rebounding is a factor to judge by which how well defense is played....I mean how many places are drebs going to influence?
8/26/2008 1:05 PM
all3
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I was just thinking over lunch how much more I enjoyed the NBA SIM back in Jan 2003 when I 1st "discovered" it. Sure, everything loses some of it's excitement over time, but I can't help but believe a lot of the joy has been lost due to things becoming so much more complex. Do things like position effectiveness (subjective) D ratings, double-teams (that seem random at best), usage %, and the like really add anything to the experience? Not for me. Simplier is many times better. Too many people / companies forget that.
8/26/2008 1:06 PM
colonels19
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Amen to that, all3
8/26/2008 1:07 PM
seble
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Quote: Originally posted by all3 on 8/26/2008I was just thinking over lunch how much more I enjoyed the NBA SIM back in Jan 2003 when I 1st "discovered" it.  Sure, everything loses some of it's excitement over time, but I can't help but believe a lot of the joy has been lost due to things becoming so much more complex.  Do things like position effectiveness (subjective) D ratings, double-teams (that seem random at best), usage %, and the like really add anything to the experience?  Not for me.  Simplier is many times better.  Too many people / companies forget that.  
That's a legitimate concern that makes sense to me. And I think at some point we need to at least make those elements more user-friendly. This is the kind of comment that helps us. The "sky is falling" comments do not help.
8/26/2008 1:21 PM
monkee
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Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 8/26/2008
To hit some of the points made:



- Salaries should be in the same range overall, but you'll probably notice good defensive guards going up while the big guys should go down a bit. This is due to us changing how the defensive numbers work. Previously, defense was inherently biased toward big guys so they were having more impact in the SimEngine. Now we've leveled things so that anyone can have a similar impact. We'll check into the distribution of salary again.
currently 276 player seasons are valued at over 8million - your new release data shows 500 such seasons - is double your definition of "same range overall"?

I'm glad to see that you'll look into it though
8/26/2008 1:37 PM
monkee
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Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 8/26/2008

Quote: Originally Posted By ncih on 8/26/2008
This release, if not cancelled, will kill the NBA sim.
Scott, are you reading the comments like this? I haven't seen anyone say anything good about this proposed update and I as well as many others seem to be dreading this update. Just seems like a downgrade on multiple levels.

Oh and by the way...the rebound percentages are now correct? Wilt's best defensive rebounding season is 82nd overall? The only thing that makes me want to do is take my business elsewhere.

I too am surprised that Wilt and Russell dont fare as well as I thought they would but overall expected the 60s rebound numbers to decrease as I felt the WiS estimates were hugely inflated and am glad to see the result

I think there are a number of good things happening here but am grateful that we get this chance to peruse the database before it gets installed since there seem to be a few issues that need to be addressed
8/26/2008 1:45 PM
colonels19
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I guess I don't care too much for rebound percentage...especially since its just an estimation. I'd like to see more of a RPM against league RPM comparison, where the top Wilt Chamberlain season ranks 7th...its a normalization of sorts that doesn't estimate...and seble, I'm not suggesting that you do it this way, just throwing around some food for thought...I accept rebound percentage for what it is in the sim.
8/26/2008 2:25 PM
bball_jones
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again i don't think it's all negative, the spreading out of the D is a good idea, unfortunately i don't think we'll ever get everybody to agree on the D ratings, i don't think it's possible to have a perfect system based on stats so i'm not sure what should be done. What i'm sure about is Lebron's D is a little better than avg, meaning way bellow, MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Kobe, Tayshaun and hundreds more...

The shot% sounds like an improvement over blind O range ratings.I like the new rebound % as well.

The main problem for me is most salaries going up by a lot.
8/26/2008 2:50 PM
monkee
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Quote: Originally Posted By colonels19 on 8/26/2008
I guess I don't care too much for rebound percentage...especially since its just an estimation. I'd like to see more of a RPM against league RPM comparison, where the top Wilt Chamberlain season ranks 7th...its a normalization of sorts that doesn't estimate...and seble, I'm not suggesting that you do it this way, just throwing around some food for thought...I accept rebound percentage for what it is in the sim.

one of the problems with rbd% is that it is a relative measure - a good rebounder on an otherwise poor rebounding team is going to fare better than a great rebounder like Happy Hairston pulling down 1000 boards playing next to Wilt
8/26/2008 2:56 PM
seble
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Quote: Originally posted by colonels19 on 8/26/2008I guess I don't care too much for rebound percentage...especially since its just an estimation.  I'd like to see more of a RPM against league RPM comparison, where the top Wilt Chamberlain season ranks 7th...its a normalization of sorts that doesn't estimate...and seble, I'm not suggesting that you do it this way, just throwing around some food for thought...I accept rebound percentage for what it is in the sim.
Rebounds per minute does not adjust for pace. For example:

Player A gets 1 rebound on 2 missed shots in 1 minute then his rebounds per minute is 1 and his rebound% is 0.5. Player B gets 1 rebound on 4 missed shots in 1 minute then his rebounds per minute is 1 and his rebound% is 0.25.

So using rebounds per minute would say those two players are equal, when rebound% would correctly identify that Player A is the more prolific rebounder per missed shot.
8/26/2008 3:04 PM
seble
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This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.
8/26/2008 3:07 PM
fm03
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Quote: Originally Posted By seble on 8/26/2008

My 2 cents worth, I agree with all3.



Quote: Originally posted by all3 on 8/26/2008 I was just thinking over lunch how much more I enjoyed the NBA SIM back in Jan 2003 when I 1st "discovered" it. Sure, everything loses some of it's excitement over time, but I can't help but believe a lot of the joy has been lost due to things becoming so much more complex. Do things like position effectiveness (subjective) D ratings, double-teams (that seem random at best), usage %, and the like really add anything to the experience? Not for me. Simplier is many times better. Too many people / companies forget that.
That's a legitimate concern that makes sense to me. And I think at some point we need to at least make those elements more user-friendly. This is the kind of comment that helps us. The "sky is falling" comments do not help
8/26/2008 5:46 PM
bball_jones
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Seble, about salaries, I've got a team sitting in an OL right now, I'm hoping it gets started before the release cause as it is now it's over the 42mil cap and I'd really like to get them on.

Here's a few things i've noticed.

current salaries= 41 922 649 new salaries= 42 743 286

that's + 820 637 , not as huge a difference as i feared but still over the cap

of the 5 starters only one had a decrease in salary, the one who got a significant D rating decrease 06-07 Rip Hamilton, the 4 others increased from 497 997 to 1 375 520, the 93-94 Rodman which is a huge increase for a guy who avg less than 36 min per game.

All of the bench guys decreased in salaries most notable 02-03 Tayshaun Prince from 607 677 to 239 000 must have to do with his D rating who fell from 99 to 50, which I find ludicrous, the guy is in the league and was on the olympic team because he's one of the best defenders.

So while on average the increase was less than a million, it seems that a lot of stars have increased around a million. So it looks like we can't afford good starters but we can get better scrubs.

Not a good deal...
8/26/2008 6:08 PM
hurley711
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Quote: Originally Posted By bball_jones on 8/26/2008
Seble, about salaries, I've got a team sitting in an OL right now, I'm hoping it gets started before the release cause as it is now it's over the 42mil cap and I'd really like to get them on.

Here's a few things i've noticed.

current salaries= 41 922 649 new salaries= 4 2743 286

that's + 820 637 , not as huge a difference as i feared but still over the cap

of the 5 starters only one had a decrease in salary, the one who got a significant D rating decrease 06-07 Rip Hamilton, the 4 others increased from 497 997 to 1 375 520, the 93-94 Rodman which is a huge increase for a guy who avg less than 36 min per game.

All of the bench guys decreased in salaries most notable 02-03 Tayshaun Prince from 607 677 to 239 000 must have to do with his D rating who fell from 99 to 50, which I find ludicrous, the guy is in the league and was on the olympic team because he's one of the best defenders.

So while on average the increase was less than a million, it seems that a lot of stars have increased around a million. So it looks like we can't afford good starters but we can get better scrubs.

Not a good deal...

how long have you been waiting for that OL to fill?
8/26/2008 7:33 PM
ashamael
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Quote: Originally posted by bball_jones on 8/26/2008The main problem for me is most salaries going up by a lot. 
The defensive ratings drop dramatically, yet the salaries increase dramatically.

That's what I can't wrap my head around. It's almost as if you are using the salary scale from before the last patch and adjusting IT instead of the current player salary.

The reason, Seble, that many people are reacting negatively is the fact that in the last patch you tried to bring salaries down for the most part. Nothing huge, but many small decreases allowed players to build slightly better teams. That intent was stated as part of that patch.

Now it's as if you completely discarded that idea, and that is upsetting.

I've a team sitting in the draft center right now that was supposed to be in an upcoming theme league. That league will not fill before this patch comes out, so I'm considering trying to rush an open league and retiring just a few months after I began.
8/26/2008 7:47 PM
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