SS Ratings Topic

98greenc5
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said another way, it is quite short-sighted to assume that every defensive out recored by a pitcher is on a hot shot back through the mound
7/9/2009 5:06 PM
iain
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Quote: Originally Posted By 98greenc5 on 7/09/2009
I did a big look at defensive play distribution in MG for season 11

I pulled every defesive stat for all players and made composite RF9 calcs ... generally speaking, more plays go up the middle in HBD than the MLB, and more outs are made by the IF vs. OF in HBD compared to MLB ... also, HBD pitchers have half the RF of MLB pitchers

in reference to the post above, the league-wide RF for MG SS is 5.76

I think there are too many factors at play to know for certain why the play distribution in MG is different than the MLB ... my own personal theory is that HBD owners may be "hiding" bad defenders in the COF slots (and/or making sure to take care of SS/CF) ... and over a large sample size of a world season, that manifests itself as the MIF/CF making more of the outs

That is a very interesting take, green... might hold some water, too.

If you block the field into "zones" as I think they do, certain zones are more likely to have competant fielders in them, making competant plays. If the plays aren't made in the zones with less-than-competant fielders, then more plays are available to be made in the more competantly-manned zones.
7/9/2009 5:07 PM
iain
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Quote: Originally Posted By 98greenc5 on 7/09/2009
MG pitcher RF = 0.7

MLB pitcher RF = 1.65

and just because the pitcher doesn't make the out doesn't mean somebody else does (they could be hits) ... and not even that it would be the SS for those that result in outs ... it could be that nobody bunts in MG, so there are no pitchers fielding bunt outs (and those extra "out opportunities" get spread out by a guy not bunting) ... or catchers field the pitcher's opportunity on bunts in HBD

Strictly anecdotally, I've seen more of this in HBD boxscores than I think I see in MLB.
7/9/2009 5:09 PM
98greenc5
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in the interest of stating the obvious, I want to make sure everyone unerstands that I'm well aware that RF is a ****-poor way of evaluating a play distribution or defensive environment

doubly so when using RF as a "compare" tool between two anythings (HBD and MLB; two different teams even)

things like strikeout rate (a PO to the catcher for RF) will obviously skew things when comparing RF at a given position and has nothing to do with defense

double play rates also skew things ... so pitcher BB rates (nothing to do with defense) can affect RF numbers
7/9/2009 5:13 PM
swamphawk22
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Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 7/09/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By hurricane384 on 7/09/2009
If you want more information, check out Morgan's blog...
This is the particular study I performed.

<< On average the top 5 SS's in Morgan world had 22% more chances than their Major League counterparts (887 to 728). Their average range factor was 5.87 versus the Major League average of 4.75. >> ... Thank you.

HBD SS's have more chances than MLB SS's. That is something to understand about HBD. It is something you can take advantage of if you understand its significance. It is not something to complain about, as some have. It is most particularly not reason to ask WIS to hand out more slick-fielding shortstops, as a few have done.

1 If there is a design reason it cannot be done I 100% understand that. We do not know at this time. If no such limitation exists I cannot understand why you would be so opposed to the game being more realistic?

2 If the stats are not playing out right, it is in fact something to complain about!

3 I am proud that I am asking for either more SSs who have the correct fieldding values, or to tweak the engine to be more forgiving to SS play.

4 The extra plays may be part of the issue, but fielding percentages are still low for SSs compared to MLB.
7/9/2009 6:10 PM
iain
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Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By hurricane384 on 7/09/2009
If you want more information, check out Morgan's blog...
This is the particular study I performed.

<< On average the top 5 SS's in Morgan world had 22% more chances than their Major League counterparts (887 to 728). Their average range factor was 5.87 versus the Major League average of 4.75. >> ... Thank you.

HBD SS's have more chances than MLB SS's. That is something to understand about HBD. It is something you can take advantage of if you understand its significance. It is not something to complain about, as some have. It is most particularly not reason to ask WIS to hand out more slick-fielding shortstops, as a few have done.

1 If there is a design reason it cannot be done I 100% understand that. We do not know at this time. If no such limitation exists I cannot understand why you would be so opposed to the game being more realistic?

2 If the stats are not playing out right, it is in fact something to complain about!

3 I am proud that I am asking for either more SSs who have the correct fieldding values, or to tweak the engine to be more forgiving to SS play.

4 The extra plays may be part of the issue, but fielding percentages are still low for SSs compared to MLB.

I'm going to ask you to prove this.

Are you sure they're not just lower than you'd like to see?
7/9/2009 6:20 PM
swamphawk22
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Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 7/09/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By hurricane384 on 7/09/2009
If you want more information, check out Morgan's blog...
This is the particular study I performed.

<< On average the top 5 SS's in Morgan world had 22% more chances than their Major League counterparts (887 to 728). Their average range factor was 5.87 versus the Major League average of 4.75. >> ... Thank you.

HBD SS's have more chances than MLB SS's. That is something to understand about HBD. It is something you can take advantage of if you understand its significance. It is not something to complain about, as some have. It is most particularly not reason to ask WIS to hand out more slick-fielding shortstops, as a few have done.

1 If there is a design reason it cannot be done I 100% understand that. We do not know at this time. If no such limitation exists I cannot understand why you would be so opposed to the game being more realistic?

2 If the stats are not playing out right, it is in fact something to complain about!

3 I am proud that I am asking for either more SSs who have the correct fieldding values, or to tweak the engine to be more forgiving to SS play.

4 The extra plays may be part of the issue, but fielding percentages are still low for SSs compared to MLB.

I'm going to ask you to prove this.

Are you sure they're not just lower than you'd like to see?

saying that if you look at the 2008 MLB season and for example, the hot stove league we talked of earlier, you will see that the starting SSs have lower fielding percentages in HBD.
7/9/2009 6:35 PM
pstrnutbag44
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Again, swamp, Hot Stove league is not the best example. It was a league that had to be "restored" at one point. Try using a league with more realistic stats like Major Leagues (have you checked there yet? Plenty of quality defensive SS at every level), Moonlight Graham, etc. that has always maintained a dedicated core group of owners. Anyone can cherry pick a single league and make their case for either side, really. Pick one that stands out as having stats the are the closest to mirroring real-life stats all around. Or, better yet, pick a few and average out your findings.
7/9/2009 6:38 PM
iain
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I'll concede that, swamp, as I can't be bothered to look either up.

I'm going to counter with: User Error.

Does Hot Stove have a proper distribution of fielding ratings?

The SIM is designed to mirror MLB, but with the caveat that owners respect the recommended fielding ratings for all positions.

You play Derek Jeter's bat, you get Derek Jeter's glove. Most HBD owners are fine with that (and I'm not saying that's a poor decision - just that it's a user decision, with consequences), but you have to accept that you're going to get substandard fielding stats from your SS.
7/9/2009 6:42 PM
clutch19
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And since we've recently covered the lack of homefield advantage in the forum I guarentee that there isnt a homefield official scorer that saves his SS a handful of errors a year. Maybe in HBD a ball backhanded in the hole with a fast runner and the SS drops the ball on transfer just gets log as SS boots groundball.
7/9/2009 7:13 PM
snake_p
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Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 7/09/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By hurricane384 on 7/09/2009
If you want more information, check out Morgan's blog...
This is the particular study I performed.

<< On average the top 5 SS's in Morgan world had 22% more chances than their Major League counterparts (887 to 728). Their average range factor was 5.87 versus the Major League average of 4.75. >> ... Thank you.

HBD SS's have more chances than MLB SS's. That is something to understand about HBD. It is something you can take advantage of if you understand its significance. It is not something to complain about, as some have. It is most particularly not reason to ask WIS to hand out more slick-fielding shortstops, as a few have done.

1 If there is a design reason it cannot be done I 100% understand that. We do not know at this time. If no such limitation exists I cannot understand why you would be so opposed to the game being more realistic?

2 If the stats are not playing out right, it is in fact something to complain about!

3 I am proud that I am asking for either more SSs who have the correct fieldding values, or to tweak the engine to be more forgiving to SS play.

4 The extra plays may be part of the issue, but fielding percentages are still low for SSs compared to MLB.

1. If you ever show an understanding of "realistic" I'll discuss it with you. Until then, your use of it as a buzz word is pathetic.

2. Understand something before you complain about it. Well, that would apply to everybody who is able to understand it (sorry, swamp).

3. You are proud to ask for freebies instead of learning to play the game. That hasn't changed since your days in GD, and I see no reason to expect it to ever change.

4. The "issue" is far too complex for you, swamp, or for most of the HBD owners. Let someone who understands the game a lot better try their hand at analyzing it ~~ they could come up with something useful that someone who doesn't understand the matter cannot.
7/9/2009 10:30 PM
swamphawk22
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Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 7/09/2009
I'll concede that, swamp, as I can't be bothered to look either up.

I'm going to counter with: User Error.

Does Hot Stove have a proper distribution of fielding ratings?

The SIM is designed to mirror MLB, but with the caveat that owners respect the recommended fielding ratings for all positions.

You play Derek Jeter's bat, you get Derek Jeter's glove. Most HBD owners are fine with that (and I'm not saying that's a poor decision - just that it's a user decision, with consequences), but you have to accept that you're going to get substandard fielding stats from your SS.

My other point is that a SS with below standard ratings plays worse than a MLB SS should. I played Yorvit Moreno (70-88-79-74) at SS about 75 games last year, he made 20 errors! I realize Moreno is below standards but that would come out to about 44 errors. That is way above anyone in baseball.

Either raise the standards or modify the engine.
7/11/2009 12:53 PM
swamphawk22
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Quote: Originally Posted By pstrnutbag44 on 7/09/2009Again, swamp, Hot Stove league is not the best example. It was a league that had to be "restored" at one point. Try using a league with more realistic stats like Major Leagues (have you checked there yet? Plenty of quality defensive SS at every level), Moonlight Graham, etc. that has always maintained a dedicated core group of owners. Anyone can cherry pick a single league and make their case for either side, really. Pick one that stands out as having stats the are the closest to mirroring real-life stats all around. Or, better yet, pick a few and average out your findings.
I did look over some other leagues and some where better.

Hometown=30 rated SS

Eckersly=30 rated SS

Major league="28" Rated SS (as per your request)

This includes all minors and people that are in no way major league hitters. This is still less than 1 per team, with no back ups.
7/11/2009 1:00 PM
snake_p
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Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By iain on 7/09/2009

I'll concede that, swamp, as I can't be bothered to look either up.

I'm going to counter with: User Error.

Does Hot Stove have a proper distribution of fielding ratings?

The SIM is designed to mirror MLB, but with the caveat that owners respect the recommended fielding ratings for all positions.

You play Derek Jeter's bat, you get Derek Jeter's glove. Most HBD owners are fine with that (and I'm not saying that's a poor decision - just that it's a user decision, with consequences), but you have to accept that you're going to get substandard fielding stats from your SS.

My other point is that a SS with below standard ratings plays worse than a MLB SS should. I played Yorvit Moreno (70-88-79-74) at SS about 75 games last year, he made 20 errors! I realize Moreno is below standards but that would come out to about 44 errors. That is way above anyone in baseball. [You played a poor fielder and he fielded poorly. OMG! Reason to leave it alone, not change it.]

Either raise the standards or modify the engine
7/11/2009 1:01 PM
pstrnutbag44
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Quote: Originally Posted By swamphawk22 on 7/11/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By pstrnutbag44 on 7/09/2009
Again, swamp, Hot Stove league is not the best example. It was a league that had to be "restored" at one point. Try using a league with more realistic stats like Major Leagues (have you checked there yet? Plenty of quality defensive SS at every level), Moonlight Graham, etc. that has always maintained a dedicated core group of owners. Anyone can cherry pick a single league and make their case for either side, really. Pick one that stands out as having stats the are the closest to mirroring real-life stats all around. Or, better yet, pick a few and average out your findings.
I did look over some other leagues and some where better.

Hometown=30 rated SS

Eckersly=30 rated SS

Major league="28" Rated SS (as per your request)

This includes all minors and people that are in no way major league hitters. This is still less than 1 per team, with no back ups.

If any of those players are under 27, you won't see what they project too. So, checking the minors helps as far as veterans go, but not as far as any player under age 27 goes. Keep that in mind when checking out ratings for anything in other worlds.
7/11/2009 1:37 PM
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