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From JDNO - "Wish we all had a better sense of what relative prestige differences meant, apparently in D1 it's double for a full grade."

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I am not sure that is true. Perhaps is goes up to double when you are taking on elite prestige teams?

For example, I just lost out on a battle to a conference mate where I had a 2/3 grade prestige advantage (B- to C), and they only spent an extra (when effort was equalized out for distance) 7k or so than me, and the other coach got the player.

I had spent 22K with the 2/3 prestige advantage. They would have been the equivilant to about 29K. That math of the "double" rule would not match up under this scenerio.

10/22/2009 3:53 PM

zhawks

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I agree combolt. I think the only way to have that not get you considered is if two schools are making the same minimal effort, then neither show up?

10/22/2009 3:53 PM

mizzou77

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Quote: Originally Posted By jdno on 10/22/2009
Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 10/22/2009 So there was your problem then the 12 evals at once was a big mistake. (fussy sorry I did only skim yours) It looks like since you both were trying to pull this fellow down the magic number was around 15 evals.
Also, I don't think we had overlapping recruiting efforts, as I remember being on him for 2, 3, or maybe even 4 cycles before wronoj showed up. And I did all my evals in 2 cycles total, and so did wronoj. I hit him in the 1am and 4am cycles, and wronoj showed up later that day

I have only read this far, however, I have allways felt the timing of your recruiting cash was as important as the amount.

I think in this case Ron-o came in with his main effort possibly later than alot of yours was spent and over-took you enough that when you each ran low on cash... he had the most weight in at the end with the start and extra mins.

10/22/2009 4:34 PM

jdno

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Good to know combalt. Maybe the elite prestige certainly has a positive effect on consideration.

JP, do you have any specific recruiting info (# of HVs, CVs, etc) to share about that battle? Maybe you can share that in your CC and then update this thread? Just a thought.

His recruiting actions would be on his player's page, and maybe you remember your recruiting actions or could get it from your inbox, though I do realize it can be hard to get an accurate count this way if you bunched some actions together.

10/22/2009 4:34 PM

jdno

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This post could not be converted. To view the original post's thread, click here.

10/22/2009 4:39 PM

zhawks

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He might have been a dropdown for 1 school and a pulldown for the other?

10/22/2009 5:21 PM

furry_nipps

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Okay, I stopped trying to read this long ago. Prestige is not a factor in div III or div II when it comes to value. A C- can beat out an A+ if you out spend them with ease. The advantage just comes from drop downs and such. This is div II, not div I so the B- and C- or whatever it is won't make a difference.

As for the pulldown crap, the earlier you do it the more effort it takes. As recruiting goes on and they get closer to dropping the easier it gets to pull them down. If I read correctly you were doing them a few cycles before him which could explain why it cost him a couple less.

10/22/2009 5:36 PM

daalter

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jdno, you only earn extra considering credit when the recruit is considering you and not considering the other school. And that credit only starts some time during the 2nd day of recruiting.

furry, you're incorrect claiming that prestige doesn't play a role in making your recruiting efforts with more in DII/DIII. It's not as large as DI, but it definitely, 100% has an effect.

10/22/2009 8:58 PM

jdno

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Ok, I wasn't sure if it was as you described daalter or if everybody being considered got the credit.

And I'm pretty sure he was a pulldown for both of us Z.

Furry, the few cycles between our pulldown attempts may have gone as you described and would help explain it if so.

10/22/2009 10:56 PM

wronoj

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OK, two things:

1) he was definitely a pulldown for me.

2) i was putting effort in on him when he showed up on your considering list (the first 8 evals). then i decided i wanted to list him, too, and added the additional 5 evals (in 2 bunches after i decided 2 more might not be enough) and the 2 HVs all in the first cycle after you listed him. Showed up on his list then.

it was close the whole way, for sure, and i had money at the end and bought him... i called it quits with $3K to go, so always had a good shot to win him. the interesting question(s) here involve what effort is worth what, how much the "far from home" thing means, and relative values of the efforts vs time.

full revelation, given distance edge (i was never worried about the prestige thing)-- i thought i needed to have spent ~1.5 times his cash. I was expecting him to show having spent $7K or $8K, so definitely was surprised he had spent almost as much as I had...

10/22/2009 11:12 PM

jpmills3

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Quote: Originally Posted By jdno on 10/22/2009
Good to know combalt. Maybe the elite prestige certainly has a positive effect on consideration.

JP, do you have any specific recruiting info (# of HVs, CVs, etc) to share about that battle? Maybe you can share that in your CC and then update this thread? Just a thought.

His recruiting actions would be on his player's page, and maybe you remember your recruiting actions or could get it from your inbox, though I do realize it can be hard to get an accurate count this way if you bunched some actions together.

Alrighty - here is that update... I lost my information, but had posted the basics on the Conference Board, so we have pertinent information, at least...

TEAM A (C Prestige) - GOT PLAYER

10/17/2009 call current coach - (10) $100
10/17/2009 phone calls - (10) $100
10/17/2009 home visit $1,224
10/17/2009 call current coach $10
10/17/2009 home visits - (2) $2,448
10/17/2009 phone call $10
10/16/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/16/2009 home visit $1,224
10/15/2009 call current coach $10
10/15/2009 home visit $1,224
10/15/2009 phone call $10
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 call current coach $10
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 home visits - (5) $6,120
10/15/2009 phone call $10
10/15/2009 guaranteed minutes - (15) $10
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 home visits - (5) $6,120
10/15/2009 call current coach - (10) $100
10/15/2009 scholarship offer $100
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 home visits - (10) $12,240
10/15/2009 scouting trip $700
10/15/2009 letters - (10) $150
10/15/2009 phone calls - (10) $100
Total $42,200

TEAM B (B- Prestige)
I put in only about 21.5k, which included about 19-20 home visits, and 5 campus visits. But I was much closer. When I figured it out, given the distances, he needed to spend about 35k to match my effort.

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So then, the extra 7k was enough to take over 2/3 grade prestige? (This is D1)

10/23/2009 9:43 AM

jdno

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Quote: Originally posted by jpmills3 on 10/23/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By jdno on 10/22/2009 Good to know combalt. Maybe the elite prestige certainly has a positive effect on consideration.

JP, do you have any specific recruiting info (# of HVs, CVs, etc) to share about that battle? Maybe you can share that in your CC and then update this thread? Just a thought.

His recruiting actions would be on his player's page, and maybe you remember your recruiting actions or could get it from your inbox, though I do realize it can be hard to get an accurate count this way if you bunched some actions together. Alrighty - here is that update... I lost my information, but had posted the basics on the Conference Board, so we have pertinent information, at least...TEAM A (C Prestige) - GOT PLAYER10/17/2009 call current coach - (10) $100
10/17/2009 phone calls - (10) $100
10/17/2009 home visit $1,224
10/17/2009 call current coach $10
10/17/2009 home visits - (2) $2,448
10/17/2009 phone call $10
10/16/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/16/2009 home visit $1,224
10/15/2009 call current coach $10
10/15/2009 home visit $1,224
10/15/2009 phone call $10
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 call current coach $10
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 home visits - (5) $6,120
10/15/2009 phone call $10
10/15/2009 guaranteed minutes - (15) $10
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 home visits - (5) $6,120
10/15/2009 call current coach - (10) $100
10/15/2009 scholarship offer $100
10/15/2009 campus visit $2,036
10/15/2009 home visits - (10) $12,240
10/15/2009 scouting trip $700
10/15/2009 letters - (10) $150
10/15/2009 phone calls - (10) $100
Total $42,200 TEAM B (B- Prestige)
I put in only about 21.5k, which included about 19-20 home visits, and 5 campus visits. But I was much closer. When I figured it out, given the distances, he needed to spend about 35k to match my effort. ------------------So then, the extra 7k was enough to take over 2/3 grade prestige? (This is D1)

So Team A had 25 HVs, 5 CVs, an eval, 46 calls/letters, and 15 mins. guaranteed. Did you have any promises on him jp?

10/23/2009 9:49 AM

oldresorter

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I think the full grade as double is accurate. the 22k vs 29k at 1.66 has a logical answer, plus all kinds of unknowns. if a C+ is really a 2.49 and a B is a 2.84 (worst case ends of their respective prestiges), the advantage is about 1.1 (2.84/2.49) instead of 1.66 - the unknowns (at least I don't know them) are the timing of the offers, the starts or minutes in the offers, the actual value in the offers (makeup of CV,HV, evals, etc, not all are equal) and any other intagibles. That is assuming both are the exact same distance away.

ONe other thing I would clear up, prestige does work the same way in d2 / d3, but the money spent is usually so small, that large amount of money spent can kill the ratio's pretty quickly (2k vs 9k kills any ration edge one may have, 22k vs 29k not so much, but both are 7k differences)

10/23/2009 9:57 AM

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