Catchers: Let’s keep it PC, boys Topic

zbrent716
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70 control, 65 vLH, 76vRH, even with a relatively weak group of pitches (77; 58; 37; 35; 31) is not nearly as bad as some of those in this thread make it seem. He'll never be a star, but he could be a serviceable ML arm and give you some quality IP.

I personally wouldn't have dreamt about giving him a multi-million dollar LT deal and I'd hate to have to rely on him in the post-season, but I doubt too many owners who say he's AAA at best actually have a staff of pitchers that good in the minor leagues (barring a 'tard league where they've trade-raped all the new guys).
2/16/2010 10:47 PM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by zbrent716 on 2/16/201070 control, 65 vLH, 76vRH, even with a relatively weak group of pitches (77; 58; 37; 35; 31) is not nearly as bad as some of those in this thread make it seem. He'll never be a star, but he could be a serviceable ML arm and give you some quality IP.

I personally wouldn't have dreamt about giving him a multi-million dollar LT deal and I'd hate to have to rely on him in the post-season, but I doubt too many owners who say he's AAA at best actually have a staff of pitchers that good in the minor leagues (barring a 'tard league where they've trade-raped all the new guys).

+1
2/17/2010 6:45 AM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 2/16/2010good, why don't you count the guys who posted a WHIP under 1.40 now. i'll give you a hint: it's everyone who threw > 30 IP and made my playoff roster


I'll add you to the list of haters. I'll take a guy with a .227 OAV and 1.40 WHIP all day.
2/17/2010 8:44 AM
antonsirius
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Quote: Originally posted by wilhitec on 2/16/2010by saying "because of his multiply bad pitches", you are assuming that a high PC means the the catcher will call the good pitches more than the worst.  site staff has said this isn't the way PC works...that a high PC act's as a "multiplier"...reducing a pitchers OAV.  So all pitchers will benifit from a high PC catcher...not just ones with bad pitches.  judging from comments in these forums, this is one of the most mis-understood ratings.

That may be the ultimate impact of PC, but that's not the game-engine effect it has. PC acts as a 'multiplier' for pitch ratings.

Rivas has pitch ratings of 77/58/37/35/31. That's one good (but not great) major league pitch, one average major league pitch, and three A-ball quality offerings. A high enough PC might turn that into the functional equivalent of, say, 87/68/47/45/41.

IMO a high PC would help a pitcher like that more than a starter with pitch ratings of 97/75/72, simply because the first guy has more room to be helped.
2/17/2010 9:06 AM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by antonsirius on 2/17/2010
Quote: Originally posted by wilhitec on 2/16/2010by saying "because of his multiply bad pitches", you are assuming that a high PC means the the catcher will call the good pitches more than the worst.  site staff has said this isn't the way PC works...that a high PC act's as a "multiplier"...reducing a pitchers OAV.  So all pitchers will benifit from a high PC catcher...not just ones with bad pitches.  judging from comments in these forums, this is one of the most mis-understood ratings.
That may be the ultimate impact of PC, but that's not the game-engine effect it has. PC acts as a 'multiplier' for pitch ratings.

Rivas has pitch ratings of 77/58/37/35/31. That's one good (but not great) major league pitch, one average major league pitch, and three A-ball quality offerings. A high enough PC might turn that into the functional equivalent of, say, 87/68/47/45/41.

IMO a high PC would help a pitcher like that more than a starter with pitch ratings of 97/75/72, simply because the first guy has more room to be helped.

any evidence that a pitcher with high pitch ratings isn't helped as much?
2/17/2010 11:44 AM
MikeT23
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Other than common sense?

$10 to a homeless man is a big deal. $10 to Lebron James is not.

A better catcher for a bad pitcher is a big deal. A better catcher for a Cy Young candidate is not.

One guy is going to pitch well either way, one guy needs all the help he can get.

2/17/2010 12:23 PM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 2/17/2010Other than common sense?$10 to a homeless man is a big deal.  $10 to Lebron James is not.A better catcher for a bad pitcher is a big deal.  A better catcher for a Cy Young candidate is not.One guy is going to pitch well either way, one guy needs all the help he can get. 


Reducing a pitcher's OAV by 10 points will help any pitcher, whether he's a fringe major leaguer or a Cy Young winner.


2/17/2010 1:04 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/17/2010
Other than common sense?

$10 to a homeless man is a big deal. $10 to Lebron James is not.

A better catcher for a bad pitcher is a big deal. A better catcher for a Cy Young candidate is not.

One guy is going to pitch well either way, one guy needs all the help he can get.



More to the point, the claim being made seems to be that high PC Catchers will help a good splits/bad pitches pitcher more than a bad splits/good pitches pitcher. There is absolutely no evidence- ZERO- that this is the case. Admin dev chats make it pretty clear that PC dos not directly modify pitches any more than anything else in a pitcher's bag of tricks.
2/17/2010 1:12 PM
silentpadna
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I kinda hate to post the same thing in two threads, but since it's relevant to both...



I'm having a hard time understanding how the PC can "only affect the OAV".

The problem to me is that OAV is a measure of events, not an event itself. I don't see how a rating can effect a measure directly. It seems to me that ratings would determine events only. It's not like hitters' splits affect batting average. They affect whether events become hits or outs (along with a whole bunch of other things obviously). The batting average is a measure of the effect, not the effect itself.

If PC rating determines something, it must, by definition impact some part of the formula that determines events. It cannot just "affect the OAV". This makes zero sense.
2/17/2010 1:14 PM
MikeT23
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Quote: Originally Posted By schuyler101 on 2/17/2010
Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 2/17/201
Other than common sense?

$10 to a homeless man is a big deal. $10 to Lebron James is not.

A better catcher for a bad pitcher is a big deal. A better catcher for a Cy Young candidate is not.

One guy is going to pitch well either way, one guy needs all the help he can get.




Reducing a pitcher's OAV by 10 points will help any pitcher, whether he's a fringe major leaguer or a Cy Young winner.




I see you're not dealing in common sense. I'll help(I'm just making up numbers for this excercise).

You have a C with a PC of 68 and one with 95. The 95 PC catcher will reduce a pitcher's OAV by 10%.

Pitcher A has an OAV of .220. 95 PC will reduce it to .198.
Pitcher B has an OAV of .290. 95 PC will reduce it to .261.

Who did he help more? He reduced one by 22 points and the other by 29. I'd say he helped the 29 point guy more. But both were 10%.
2/17/2010 1:17 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By silentpadna on 2/17/2010

I kinda hate to post the same thing in two threads, but since it's relevant to both...



I'm having a hard time understanding how the PC can "only affect the OAV".

The problem to me is that OAV is a measure of events, not an event itself. I don't see how a rating can effect a measure directly. It seems to me that ratings would determine events only. It's not like hitters' splits affect batting average. They affect whether events become hits or outs (along with a whole bunch of other things obviously). The batting average is a measure of the effect, not the effect itself.

If PC rating determines something, it must, by definition impact some part of the formula that determines events. It cannot just "affect the OAV". This makes zero sense.
There are certainly those who disagree with this, but there is a theory that the Sim works in "steps" (for instance, Step One, BB or not?, Step Two, K or not?) and that the various ratings play key roles in different steps. I believe one such step to be "hit/out for ball in play" with the key ratings in this step being batter and pitcher splits, ballpark factor, and Catcher PC. That would explain why they can say that PC only effects OAV with such confidence. It would also explain why they could so drastically reduce HR rates without changing BA a bit- Extra bases are determined in a seperate step from hit/out. Again, theory only, but it matches the facts as we know them.
2/17/2010 1:21 PM
gjello10
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Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/17/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By schuyler101 on 2/17/2010

Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 2/17/2010
Other than common sense?

$10 to a homeless man is a big deal. $10 to Lebron James is not.

A better catcher for a bad pitcher is a big deal. A better catcher for a Cy Young candidate is not.

One guy is going to pitch well either way, one guy needs all the help he can get.




Reducing a pitcher's OAV by 10 points will help any pitcher, whether he's a fringe major leaguer or a Cy Young winner.





I see you're not dealing in common sense. I'll help(I'm just making up numbers for this excercise).

You have a C with a PC of 68 and one with 95. The 95 PC catcher will reduce a pitcher's OAV by 10%.

Pitcher A has an OAV of .220. 95 PC will reduce it to .198.
Pitcher B has an OAV of .290. 95 PC will reduce it to .261.

Who did he help more? He reduced one by 22 points and the other by 29. I'd say he helped the 29 point guy more. But both were 10%.
He said 10 points, not 10%. Using 10 points, .220 becomes .210 and .290 becomes .280. Who did he help more?
2/17/2010 1:24 PM
MikeT23
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I don't care what he said. OAV is a percentage. Why would it not be reduced in a percentage?
2/17/2010 1:32 PM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 2/17/2010I don't care what he said.  OAV is a percentage.  Why would it not be reduced in a percentage?
sure, as i said 10 points, which as I'm sure you know is shorthand for 1%, which is a percentage.
2/17/2010 1:54 PM
MikeT23
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I assumed that's what you meant as I assumed you understood how modifiers worked.

So, back to my example, which guy do you think he helped more?
2/17/2010 2:20 PM
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