Quote: Originally posted by sully712 on 5/28/2010I guess people dont mind paying to beta test the program for them.

Quote: Originally Posted By antonsirius on 5/28/2010



mmt, nothing that happens in a couple of games (short of a catastrophic server crash that wipes everything out and the data can't be recovered) can be classified as a disaster. Nothing.

Thats your opinion; the fact you put something in bold and state it in an absolute does not make it so. But from what Ive been able to guage, I'm not the only one that feels this way; the fact I predict another mass exodus on the horizon would lead me to believe its a "disaster" specifically, when you consider this new release was somehow intended to retain customers. But we are really arguing semantics which is par for the course for you...pick a minor detail and hammer at it...whatever...

Not even your 0-3 start in Tark, with a team that doesn't have the STA to play full press (much less press with an uptempo offense, as you've done in two of those three games) under the new engine.

If you are somehow suggesting my start had anything to do with my gripe, well, youre really clueless. 1) As Ive already said, I can accept the fact that Im losing and will need to adjust, those adjustments however should not be counterproductive in that I change and WIS changes the next day; Users should not feel as though theyre playing a chess match with the developer. 2) I think its a bit disingenuous for you, someone who hasnt played in many seasons, to be telling me what works and doesnt work; Ive been running this style for many seasons with similar rosters and as I immediately noticed in exhibitions that this would be a throw away season (not just with this team but with others and looking at others box scores) Im trying things to see what does and doesnt work. Again, this is sorta pointless considering what I do learn is at the mercy of them making another change.

Are we essentially doing a live beta test? Sure. That's been true of HD since season 1, and anyone who expected anything different was, frankly, delusional. That's just how WIS runs things.

Well, wasnt this part of the problem in the first place? Isn't this what was supposed to change under Seble? Wasnt that the entire point of the new engine and Beta test? And whats your point, that because its done the wrong way we should just accept it? Thats odd coming from you of all people.



Is it better or worse that they can dive in and adjust (since you don't seem to like the 't' word) things very quickly in response to what they see going on, rather than the old system of "yes we know there's a problem, it might get changed in a season or two?" I can't see how the current set-up could possibly be worse than that.

Ah, nice try at the revisionist history but this is exactly the way potential was rolled out and handled. And if you want "better" go back and read what I wrote. None of it was exactly complex, hard to comprehend and couldn't have easily been done.

Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 5/28/2010

Again, to say I don't get it is to completely ignore my previous post and whole persona here. Give me at least a smidgen of credit here. I get it. I agree that the beta was botched and they rolled it out too early. My goal is to help fix things. Period.



I get your goal, I dont get your approach. It seems you and I mostly agree. I just think the approach needs to be uproar and rage in that this crap shouldnt be happening and is unacceptable. Your approach is accepting and trying to work through the crap. I mean seriously in abouta week Naismith is going to roll over...do we want (and is it needed) for the new engine to be put in there as well. If more of you vets got angry, ****** and stopped taking it; trust me this crap engine wouldnt be put into another world until its ready. But you all just go along for the ride. That's the problem. That's where Im saying you dont get it. Trust me I know there are no bigger advocates for fixing the game than you OR and a couple of others...but your approach is broken.

Quote: Originally Posted By oldresorter on 5/28/2010

Quote: Originally posted by dalter on 5/28/2010
Honestly, I'm dumbfounded that there were vets out there who didn't expect that there would be tweaks after the roll-out. I'm not saying that makes it perfect or even right, but I'm really thrown by any vet who is surprised by it ... as I tell people all the time at work, it's all about managing expectations.

(Not to say that we should expect little, only that the expectations should be pragmatic and attuned to reality ... my expectations for what the engine will look like after a month or two was always much higher than what it would look like after a day or two.)

I've been surprised the crowd has been as tolerant as they have so far, it seemed to me the FSS change caused near as much intolerance on the boards, and was truly a tweak, what we are dealing with right now is the 'kitchen sink'.

unfortunately, one thing I am pretty sure is different between now and two years ago or four years ago, is the vet HD community is somewhat apathetic, versus how passionate folks were then

to regain the passion will almost surely require new coaches, and to get new coaches, the product must be improved. I am pretty certain that in order to improve the product, the engine needed to be re-written, so here we are.

no big deal really - has to be this way - or maybe I too have just grown that apathetic - LO

Quote: Originally Posted By antonsirius on 5/28/2010



mmt:

1) You've been around long enough to know that every big change comes accompanied by dire predictions of a mass exodus. I see no reason why I should take your prediction of one any more seriously than the previous ones.

Ah, just from my Big 10 conference alone we lost Mlat/Zhawks...cant speak for Mlat but Z quit primarily based on the Beta test. Count me in and thats 3/12 coaches in one conference in one world all 3 are long term vets that love the game...I email with Sully712 and he's indicated that because of this roll out hes dropping at a minimum 3 teams because he refuses to pay to beta test; unless your memory is short...plenty of coaches because of how potential was handled...so remember what you like but those are the facts.

2) "Chess match with the developer"? That's pretty ridiculous hyperbole. Yesterday's adjustments don't come anywhere close to that level. That description also completely undermines your case that you don't care much about the current results. You feel like you're stuck in a chess match with the developer, but you don't care whether you win or lose.... riiiiiight.

Come on man unless you just have an ability to craft nicely put together sentences; youre smarter than this. Of course its a chess match. They roll out a new engine, which destroys the FCP (Im fine with that and dont mind the losing that comes with this season); I react by changing all my practice plans to scrap the press so that by next season Im adjusted; they then make changes which limit the impact on the press; so should I now go put my practice plan back? Oh, and by the way since youre such a smart ***; I coach Georgetown in Tark as well with Sully; we are 3-0 and ranked #2 and I still feel the press is outta whack with that team...none of my points change simply because Im winning there...like I said...

3) Considering that you are trying to paint the current situation as worse than the old one, yes, I think it's entirely appropriate to point out both the ways in which it is better (quicker response times for adjustments) and which it is exactly the same (live beta testing).

Well, I guess you miss the point in that I'm saying it shouldnt be a live beta test...the fact you are willing to pay to test the game is your perogative; it is mine to be disgusted that they have the nerve to treat their customers in that manner.
4) Potential was not adjusted after a couple of days, You're the one engaged in revisionist history there, not me.

Im pretty sure there was non stop tweaking in the same manner...either way...these changes are far more sweeping and have greater impact...Also, past mistakes dont justify new ones...you as someone who is so passionate about politics should know this.

Quote: Originally Posted By mniven on 5/28/2010
Back to the discussion about the 5/27 update:

After looking over a bunch of boxscores, they definitely overtweaked to fix the fatigue/pressing problems. I saw very few occasions in which players on pressing teams went into the orange and almost none into the red, which frankly is ridiculous. In the old engine players frequently went into the orange and red, which makes total sense.

So, basically, all the coaches running a FCP, which is about 80% of HD users, ***** loudly and they totally tweak the engine after a handful of games? Talk about knee-jerk.

Quote: Originally Posted By shampton91 on 5/28/2010If they decide to not roll this out to other worlds, Im done with this site. No way this bliss should be confined to just 2 of the worlds..everyone should be able to enjoy this wonderful new toy Fox has given us