Spot the difference Topic

mhulshult
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Posted by deathinahole on 10/25/2010 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 10/25/2010 3:52:00 PM (view original):
$190M cap.

$185M cap.

What would you rather have? No "yea but, I'm getting prospects" or "yea but, the guy I'm trading with is dumber than tube socks".

Which one would you rather have?
Is this you putting your fingers in your ears saying, "la la la la la la la la" :)
10/25/2010 3:57 PM
mhulshult
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We disagree, that's fine.  But the two deals achieve the same result.
10/25/2010 3:58 PM
deathinahole
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Posted by jvford on 10/25/2010 3:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 10/25/2010 3:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 10/25/2010 3:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 10/25/2010 3:41:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 10/25/2010 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deathinahole on 10/25/2010 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Et voila. Green hits it on the head.

Example;

We all start with a $185M cap.
Lets assume that the team receiving the cash or player has $100M in salary, $85M tied up in others (prospect, college scouting, etc etc).

Before the trade, that team has $98M in salary committed.

Scenario 1 - $98M + $7M - $5.384M = $99.614M in salary committed. Cap remains at $185M.

Scenario 2 - $98M + $7M - $.384M = $104.614M in salary committed. Cap is now $190M, because that $5M isn't really "cash"...it's cap space.

The reason for the exercise is that I see a LOT of owners (and that's was the consensus before green stepped in) that see cash, and think it's really cash. What you are really doing is giving someone a larger cap than the rest of the league.

That may not change someone's mind, but I get uptight because I don't think many know what they are approving.

But how is that relevant?

Scenario 1 - $98M + $7M - $5.38M = $99.614M in salary committed.  Cap remains at $185M  and cap room is $.386M

Scenario 2 - $98M + $7M - $.384M = $104.614M in salary committed.  Cap is now $190M and cap room is $.386M

In both scenarios, owner #1 is reducing his available budget by $5M, while owner #2 is increasing his by $5M. 

The $7M player you're getting is because of the $5M. Without that, you are not getting that $7M player.

Now, if you had budgeted properly on rollover, you could get that $7M player. But you didn't. So, I'm going to veto and teach you a lesson about fiscal management, or I'm going to make you move budget from Prospect or Coaching, or I'm going to make you give up another asset to make it work (see the $5M player in the other example)
The $7M player you're getting is because you overspent on a $5M worthless, aging player in a previous season. Without that, you are not getting that $7M player.

Congrats, you clearly planned better.
Everybody; jvford says cash in trades is ok because someone will do something stupid with it.
Huh?  I think you confused yourself.
No.

Your point was irrelevant, so rather than redline you, I mocked you. Because I've seen your tantrum in HJ. I know you'll either hissy and leave, or stick to the point.

How the person spends his money is irrelevant.

$190M cap vs $185M cap. I don't reward people for having insufficient budget. Either turf the trade or move budget from other areas.
10/25/2010 3:58 PM
deathinahole
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Posted by mhulshult on 10/25/2010 3:58:00 PM (view original):
We disagree, that's fine.  But the two deals achieve the same result.
We disagree, and it is fine, but they do not achieve the same result.

DO NOT make me copy and paste it again.
10/25/2010 3:59 PM
jvford
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I didn't realize you were in HJ....I guess you kept your stupidity to yourself there.

You: I don't want to reward someone for screwing up.
Me: But in the crap player scenario, you're rewarding someone who screwed up in a previous season.
You: I don't understand.
10/25/2010 4:01 PM
mhulshult
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Posted by deathinahole on 10/25/2010 3:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mhulshult on 10/25/2010 3:58:00 PM (view original):
We disagree, that's fine.  But the two deals achieve the same result.
We disagree, and it is fine, but they do not achieve the same result.

DO NOT make me copy and paste it again.
After the deal (in either scenario), what other transactions can the team that needed the money do?
10/25/2010 4:01 PM
mhulshult
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Posted by deathinahole on 10/25/2010 3:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mhulshult on 10/25/2010 3:35:00 PM (view original):
And it's not $190MM cap with no strings vs $185MM cap with no strings.  It's $185MM cap with no strings vs $190MM cap where $5MM has to be spent on a 37 scrub AAA player.  These two are not the same.
Reverse that. $185M with the $5M player, or $190 with no strings.
And, no, the team with the $190MM payroll has to keep the $5MM scrub.
10/25/2010 4:04 PM
deathinahole
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Posted by jvford on 10/25/2010 4:01:00 PM (view original):
I didn't realize you were in HJ....I guess you kept your stupidity to yourself there.

You: I don't want to reward someone for screwing up.
Me: But in the crap player scenario, you're rewarding someone who screwed up in a previous season.
You: I don't understand.
You: What the point of this thread?
Me: The difference between salary and cash in trade
You: What's the point of this thread?
Me: ...
10/25/2010 4:05 PM
jvford
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To make it simpler for you......

In S1, you have a $180M budget because you screwed up previously.  The trade gets you an additional $5M of budget.

In S2, you have a $185M budget.  The trade gets you an additional $5M of budget.

What's the difference?
10/25/2010 4:05 PM
mhulshult
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10/25/2010 4:08 PM
deathinahole
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mhulshult,

Cash in trade = increasing someone's budget beyond $185M to get a trade through. Doesn't matter if the dude is last place. Doesn't matter if he has $80M in AAA. He has a higher cap than $185M.

I will give my middle finger to that deal all day long.

If said dude, by some miracle, talked someone into taking a $5M AAA salary in the deal, but he still has a $185M cap, and the trade around it is a baseball trade, I will accept it and mock the receiving party mightly.

Philosophically, I appreciate that everyone is not on line with that thinking. But, I'm not convinced everyone has the correct optics to make an informed decision. If they do, have at it.
10/25/2010 4:10 PM
deathinahole
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Posted by jvford on 10/25/2010 4:05:00 PM (view original):
To make it simpler for you......

In S1, you have a $180M budget because you screwed up previously.  The trade gets you an additional $5M of budget.

In S2, you have a $185M budget.  The trade gets you an additional $5M of budget.

What's the difference?
No.

S1, you have $185M budget, $5M of which you tossed to a turd.
S2, you have $185M budget, $5M of which you tossed to a turd.

If you accept cash in trade, you have $190M of budget, $5M of which you tossed to a turd. If I and 9 others veto, you need to deal with your $5M turd, or transfer budget.

I don't care that you tossed payroll to a turd. You are not getting more budget than me.

That is the philosophical issue, from which you can agree or disagree.
10/25/2010 4:15 PM
mhulshult
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"Philosophically, I appreciate that everyone is not on line with that thinking.  But I'm not convinced everyone has the correct optics to make an informed decision." = "I am smarter than everyone else.  Agree with me or you're wrong."
10/25/2010 4:17 PM
strikeout26
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In my opinion, they are the exact same trade. Adding the turd is just a loophole to get around worlds that don't allow cash in trades.
10/25/2010 4:17 PM
deathinahole
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Posted by mhulshult on 10/25/2010 4:18:00 PM (view original):
"Philosophically, I appreciate that everyone is not on line with that thinking.  But I'm not convinced everyone has the correct optics to make an informed decision." = "I am smarter than everyone else.  Agree with me or you're wrong."
No, listen to what I said. I'm not convinced everyone is as smart as me on this point, and if you are and still are ok with cash in trades, then have at it.

Make sure you get the ego stroke right.
10/25/2010 4:19 PM
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