FCP question (following 2/3 update) Topic

Post below copied from another thread. Any other thoughts or experiences with the press since the update?

Quote post by Rails on 2/23/2011 11:56:00 AM:
As suspected I think the press is very much alive and well with this update due to the fatigue and FG% tweaks.  Just for ***** and giggles I switched from zone to press with a bunch of senior A IQ zone players.  Their IQs in press are in the C- range.  We played played the same opponent on the road with press and at home with zone.

Results are staggering.  The biggest is that when pressing the game was extended to 90 possessions.  In the zone it was at about 70 possessions.  One of the biggest supposed negatives to press is FGA% and in both games the opponent shot .455.  Unremarkable.  But maybe the with the tweak .455 was similar to .462 in the old engine.  La dee freakin' da.  Again unremarkable. 

In both games the opponent took 55 FGA, again unremarkable until you factor in the number of possessions and think about it in terms of per possession.  Percentage-wise that's a lot fewer FG attempts against the press (55/70 or .78 shots per possession against zone versus 55/90 press or .61 shots per possession against the press. 

The opponent did shoot 8 more FTs against the press which converted per possession has a lighter impact than its number 8 would indicate  (24 FTA in a 90 possession press game (.26 FTA per possession) versus 16 FTA in a 70 possession zone game (.23 FTA per possession).  

But the whopper stat is 23 turnovers against the press versus 10 against the zone.  Per possession that's 23/90= 26% of possessions ending in a turnover against the press and 14% ending in a TO against the zone.  Same tempo (uptempo), same teams, pressing on the road with C- IQs, playing at home with A zone IQs.

That's 116% more turnovers created per possession in the press while yielding just 13% more FTA.  The press also yielded 22% fewer FGA per possession while the FGA% difference was unremarkable.

I know some of you will say small sample size and it is.  But C- IQs on the road versus A IQs at home.  With fatigue tweaks, FGA tweaks, as a whole fewer fouls occurring in HD than irl even though many teams run press in HD.  It's something I've tracked with other teams for a while.

There is absolutely no downside to the press.  None.  You know it.  I know it.  We all know it.
2/23/2011 1:27 PM
This thread has given me a lot to think about.  Ignoring the personal bickering for a moment, I'm now officially paranoid that FCP may get "nerfed" in a future update and leave my D3 Bethany (Naismith) team out in the cold before I even have a chance to get it off the ground.  It was already playing FCP/FB when I took over, and I left it that way thinking that I could eventually recruit the kinds of players to play that combo effectively.

Now I'm starting to doubt myself.  All through my past as a real life coach and then through a dozen or so computer sims, I've always favored Man to Man for its flexibility and the rebounding advantages it brings.  Technically, FCP is a variation of Man in HD but to switch over now would mean trashing hours of practice time for my team and a setback to square one on IQs.

I must agree with whoever said that FCP should be an option rather than a main defense.  Wooden's press was a 2-2-1 zone press.  Richardson's was a 1-3-1 zone press. Pitino used more of a "Matchup press".  There are many ways to play the press and all of them begin with the basic zone vs man dichotomy.  I'd love to see that implemented in HD, although careful thought must be given to how practice time is assigned.  You can't just throw a Man team out on the floor and have them immediately know how to play Pitino's defense any more than you can a zone team switching to Wooden's press.




2/23/2011 2:45 PM (edited)
u know what. If I win the NC with Drew despite having 6 FR and only 2 SRs, then I'll believe the press is overpowered!
2/23/2011 2:52 PM
Posted by tianyi7886 on 2/23/2011 2:52:00 PM (view original):
u know what. If I win the NC with Drew despite having 6 FR and only 2 SRs, then I'll believe the press is overpowered!
Good luck.  I'll be watching :)

2/23/2011 3:00 PM
Thanks to zbrent716 for this thread - was just debating whether the magic of the FCP was making a return. I'm not tech savvy enough to post a link to my team, but its D3 Amherst in Crum. I'm 7-4 overall and 1-4 vs FCP. In those 5 FCP games, I have averaged 25 TO's per game and my 643 rated SG averages 5 per on his own. In the non FCP games, I average about 13 TO's per game and the SG averages 1.5 TO per game. It got to the point that I tried starting my top 3 ball handlers and that didn't make a difference. I'll grant you that the 2 best teams on my schedule ran FCP and that will skew the numbers, but its clear that zbrent is onto something with his original post. Question is whether any of this will be addressed in the next update.

2/23/2011 4:25 PM
Posted by ghetoboy44 on 2/23/2011 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Thanks to zbrent716 for this thread - was just debating whether the magic of the FCP was making a return. I'm not tech savvy enough to post a link to my team, but its D3 Amherst in Crum. I'm 7-4 overall and 1-4 vs FCP. In those 5 FCP games, I have averaged 25 TO's per game and my 643 rated SG averages 5 per on his own. In the non FCP games, I average about 13 TO's per game and the SG averages 1.5 TO per game. It got to the point that I tried starting my top 3 ball handlers and that didn't make a difference. I'll grant you that the 2 best teams on my schedule ran FCP and that will skew the numbers, but its clear that zbrent is onto something with his original post. Question is whether any of this will be addressed in the next update.

Amherst/Crum:  whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Roster.aspx

You're also playing FB offense, which might have something to do with your TOs.

2/23/2011 4:33 PM
fatigue rate for FCP should be MUCH higher than for any other defense, to the point where if you want to run it, you will NEED to make adjustments like "if winning by 1 with 5 minutes left play zone." running uptempo press for the whole game NEEDS to be suicide.
2/23/2011 4:52 PM
They need to get rid of the FCP as a main defense all together. This will then eliminate the debate whether or not a mythical defense is going to thrive or not.
2/23/2011 7:57 PM
Sorry, in my above post I see that was mentioned already earlier in this thread. I didn't have enough time when I made the above post to read through the banter before posting  :)
2/24/2011 1:25 AM
Posted by zbrent716 on 2/3/2011 7:05:00 PM (view original):
I haven't been around in HD for all that long, but when I first started I heard of (and saw) a ton of FCP teams doing very well - probably better than their ratings would indicate. This apparently wasn't my imagination, as soon after I began playing HD, changes were made to reduce the effectiveness of playing FCP. Whether or not those changes went far enough isn't my question (though FCP still seems a bit gimmicky to me to be a base defense). Here's the thing though - 

At least 4 of the current changes stand to make FCP *more* effective once again:
  • Small reduction to fatigue rate - one of the drawbacks to FCP is that it causes your starters to get tired more quickly, which generally leads to more playing time for a weaker bench. This may be a small reduction, but any reduction to fatigue rate increases the effectiveness of the FCP. In the dev. chat, Seble says this was done because players average fewer minutes in HD than in RL. As someone mentioned in the chat, in RL players do not get pulled at "fairly fresh" but what no one has mentioned is that, in RL, no one runs a FCP with 10 players (if anyone runs one at all). Since so many teams are still running FCP, of course the HD starters' minutes should be lower. They are running around non-stop on defense!
  • Lowered 2-point and 3-point FG% - another of the penalties for FCP is that - if you don't create a turnover - you are more likely to give up an open look. Well, if the FG% are lowered across the board, those open looks become less of a penalty.
  • Reduced average FT grade for new recruits - in theory, FCP (rightfully) causes more fouls, and so more foul shots. If the average FT grade for new recruits (so eventually all players) is reduced, then more of those foul shots will be missed, so the "penalty" for running FCP and having increased fouls is lessened.
  • Increased steals - as clarified in the dev chat, this is not supposed to be an increase in turnovers, but instead just that a higher percentage of the turnovers result in steals. Wouldn't this change benefit a FCP press more than anyone else, as it allows for more steals in the backcourt or in transition leading to easy buckets? My center stealing the ball while playing in the middle of a 2-3 zone surely does less to lead to an easy bucket than a steal out of a FCP.
So what am I missing? Why doesn't this take us to the next age of dominant FCP teams, assuming we left the prior age originally?

i am not really convinced all of those are noteworthy press advantages:

reduction to fatigue rate - if this is just a even % modification on the rate every player would tire, man/zone teams should see a higher MPG increase for their starters than the press, due to a higher MPG rate to start with. from that standpoint, this change hurts the press. however, the press was suffering from players at low fatigue, so this is shaving off more fatigued situations, which have a higher penalty. so those two should balance themselves out to some extent.

lowered fg% - if this rate was basically flat across the board, it shouldn't really affect the shots taken against the press more than any other defense. however, with more turnovers forced, the press should result in fewer opposing field goal attempted than any other defense. because the fg% went down, the teams with the least field goals take the smallest hit - the teams press teams are playing. i think this one will actually hurt the press, overall.

reduces ft% - ok, that one is noteworthy :)

increased steals - i am not sure if this is a purely cosmetic change, or if it results in more fast break opportunities. if it results in more fb opportunities, i would think you are right that its a press advantage. the only reason i hold back is, previously, the press didn't really seem to cause notably more fb opportunities. i wonder if the defense against a steal in the press is better, because more players are back, trying to beat the press?


all in all, i think in the new engine, i think the press started out totally nerfed - virtually unplayable. once the extreme fatigue penalties were cut drastically, and the variance on fouls, which was murdering the best press teams, was reduced - i think things mostly evened out. all in all, i suspect the effect of these 4 changes put together is less than either of those, but that ft% thing could be big. i don't think this will result in a new age of dominant FCP teams, but it is possible the press is once again the best defense.
2/24/2011 3:34 AM
coach, regarding that first one - I don't think that increase in MPG for non-press v press folks does fully offset the effects of the fatigue issue. For good or bad - before the nerf my D II teams (very good ones) were able to run just about any press except the exceptional ones into fatigue issues. I ran uptempo just to help push that, and we typically enjoyed a fatigue advantage. I'm not debating the value of the change, but reducing the fatigue issue, perhaps in conjunction with this free throw variance thing that I'm not sure what you mean, and press seems very like it was before as an outsider playing against it...

ETA: The fatigue changes and lowered fouls coupled with reduced shooting % have destroyed my team building plans.
2/24/2011 3:46 AM
I think the update has helped FCP

Still unsure that I have seen enough to know whether it is a little or a lot, but I'm glad I stayed with press at a couple places and that I continued to spend a few minutes on press at others to keep that option available some time soon
2/24/2011 2:33 PM
No doubt.  Their answer is to richard around with fatigue.  That's their answer. 

Dicking around with fatigue isn't the answer--I mentioned that to TK and Seble when he first took over--deal with the press at it's core level.  That's to say that a presses FGA% should be 65.7%, not 48.6 FGA% when other defenses yield 47.9 FGA%.  Give 'em their turnovers, but then make 'em pay with open shots. 

But here we are two years later still dicking around. 

Make it successful only with superior speed and athleticism, not comparable attributes.  Or make them fall back into a base defense as well--either a man or zone which would require practice in either one of those sets.  Should be able to dictate how much to press (25%, 50%, never, 100%) and make teams practice press as well as another set once the press is broken.
2/24/2011 3:29 PM
Posted by Rails on 2/24/2011 3:29:00 PM (view original):
No doubt.  Their answer is to richard around with fatigue.  That's their answer. 

Dicking around with fatigue isn't the answer--I mentioned that to TK and Seble when he first took over--deal with the press at it's core level.  That's to say that a presses FGA% should be 65.7%, not 48.6 FGA% when other defenses yield 47.9 FGA%.  Give 'em their turnovers, but then make 'em pay with open shots. 

But here we are two years later still dicking around. 

Make it successful only with superior speed and athleticism, not comparable attributes.  Or make them fall back into a base defense as well--either a man or zone which would require practice in either one of those sets.  Should be able to dictate how much to press (25%, 50%, never, 100%) and make teams practice press as well as another set once the press is broken.
+100

eggzactly
2/24/2011 3:33 PM
Posted by Rails on 2/24/2011 3:29:00 PM (view original):
No doubt.  Their answer is to richard around with fatigue.  That's their answer. 

Dicking around with fatigue isn't the answer--I mentioned that to TK and Seble when he first took over--deal with the press at it's core level.  That's to say that a presses FGA% should be 65.7%, not 48.6 FGA% when other defenses yield 47.9 FGA%.  Give 'em their turnovers, but then make 'em pay with open shots. 

But here we are two years later still dicking around. 

Make it successful only with superior speed and athleticism, not comparable attributes.  Or make them fall back into a base defense as well--either a man or zone which would require practice in either one of those sets.  Should be able to dictate how much to press (25%, 50%, never, 100%) and make teams practice press as well as another set once the press is broken.
that would make a lot of sense. i'd also increase the fatigue rate as i mentioned before since i think thats a core issue.
2/25/2011 9:20 AM
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FCP question (following 2/3 update) Topic

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