Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 8:37:00 PM (view original):
Does anyone have an opinion on the prestige gap between divisions? (i.e. Is the advantage the same between D3 A to A+ as it is between D3 A+ and a D2 D- prestige).

My personal opinion is the prestige boundaries are multiplicative based on the previous boundary value but I don't know if there is some type of offset between divisions to handle the A++++ teams in D2 and D3 (that or they have some type of cap in place).

my opinion is that prestige is capped in d2 and d3, but not d1. it used to be the case that d2 or d3 schools could do so well, they wrapped around and showed as a D-. WIS put out a fix for this, it was before my time (over 5 years ago), but thats how people explained it to me. in d2, i strongly believe all A+s or any other grade are created equal for who you can talk to, so it kind of makes sense they are capped. anyway, i don't think d1 was ever capped, based off of some battles ive seen where some A+ schools seem to get a much bigger prestige advantage than others.

anyway, i think the prestige value in d2 and d3 is much smaller. in d3 it might be like 10% per grade. i always assumed it was small, and my d2/d3 battle notes were mostly to determine the value of home and campus visits. however, i did battle up a division all the time, from d3 to d2, and i think its 10% per grade the whole way, with a d3 a+ being 1 partial grade off a d2 d-. i can't swear to it but thats how it seemed to me. 

Posted by jjwarden on 8/22/2012 8:38:00 PM (view original):
Gotcha.  Makes sense.  So, for an example.  

Team 1 has $10,000 to spend after they offer a scholarship.  The recruit they are looking at is 200 miles away.  It is most cost effective for them to use all HV's to recruit this player.  (No CV's, phone calls etc)  This is the best bang for the buck.  

Team 2 has $10,000 to spend after they offer a scholarship.  The recruit they are looking at is 500 miles away.  It is most cost effective for them to use all CV's to recruit this player.  (No HV's, phone calls etc.)  This is the best bang for the buck.  

A Home Visit is the most effective way to recruit a player under 360 miles.  360 miles and over it is most cost effective to use Campus Visits.  Correct?  

yup, thats what im saying.

Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 8:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by brip87 on 8/22/2012 8:42:00 PM (view original):
You need to calculate what you feel a cv is equal to a hv like 1.5 to 1 then use the cost at the paticular distance to see which is a better value.  I dont think there is a presitge difference between divisions.  andI dont think there is a cap on an A+ not all A+ are equal. 

If you don't think there is a gap between divisions, do you think it is possible for what is considered an A+++++ D3 school to actually have a higher prestige multiplier than a D2 D- prestige school?

no, but going back to the post i just made to you a minute ago, it used to be. this is definitely part of my theory of why i dont think there is a gap between divisions, i have done a bunch of d2 to d1 battles too, i probably have more cross-division battles per seasons of d2/d3 than anyone ive seen, and it always worked out about right that there was no gap. ive beaten a bunch of D range prestige d1 school, but only 1 in the C range. however ive beaten even A- championship coaches in d2, with my d3 schools. the d2 coach is a guy i like a lot, and he talked about it a bunch, he was really poorly spending his money back then, all these phone calls and crap to the recruit. and he was at distance. so i was able to actually spend less money than him, by a significant amount, and still win the player (with a+ d3 vs a- d2).

What's funny about it is I understand what the basic principle is but I have no idea how to manipulate the math formulas to get the results I am looking for.  In other words I am pretty mathematically challenged!    In the past I have just made a bunch of half informed guesses and it has sometimes worked, others times not.  (Looking for a more precise method of success now I guess. )

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/22/2012 8:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 8:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by brip87 on 8/22/2012 8:42:00 PM (view original):
You need to calculate what you feel a cv is equal to a hv like 1.5 to 1 then use the cost at the paticular distance to see which is a better value.  I dont think there is a presitge difference between divisions.  andI dont think there is a cap on an A+ not all A+ are equal. 

If you don't think there is a gap between divisions, do you think it is possible for what is considered an A+++++ D3 school to actually have a higher prestige multiplier than a D2 D- prestige school?

no, but going back to the post i just made to you a minute ago, it used to be. this is definitely part of my theory of why i dont think there is a gap between divisions, i have done a bunch of d2 to d1 battles too, i probably have more cross-division battles per seasons of d2/d3 than anyone ive seen, and it always worked out about right that there was no gap. ive beaten a bunch of D range prestige d1 school, but only 1 in the C range. however ive beaten even A- championship coaches in d2, with my d3 schools. the d2 coach is a guy i like a lot, and he talked about it a bunch, he was really poorly spending his money back then, all these phone calls and crap to the recruit. and he was at distance. so i was able to actually spend less money than him, by a significant amount, and still win the player (with a+ d3 vs a- d2).

If that's the case and you've been able to win battles with schools more than a letter grade higher in the next division, I hyphothesis then that there is no cap to D2 or D3 A+++ schools either then (i.e. a D3 A++++ school could be on equal footing with B+ prestige D2 school) and that once a school goes over the A+ boundary for their division their grade remains A+ but there is no cap on their actual invisible prestige number.

no no, i am saying there IS a cap in d2/d3. there just isnt a gap. yes cap, no gap! the difference from a to a+ d3 is the same as a+ to d- d2, IMO. and yes, i have won more than a letter grade, much more - a+ d3 to a- d2 is the a+ to d- distance ( atleast a third grade, more if u think there is a gap), plus 3 full letter grades. but i won by putting more effort in, not because i magically had b+ quality prestige or something.

to reiterate, i value the prestige grade bonus in d2/d3 to be approximately 10%, but i wouldn't be blow away by values all the way up to 25% (but i am pretty skeptical, i could see 15% at least). in d1, i think its 50%, and did more work to really nail that down, because d1 recruiting is so competitive and battle oriented. i mean, i tend to make d2/d3 recruiting more battle oriented than most, but its still a much smaller factor. so anyway, at only 10% per grade, that a+ d3 to a- d2 is only about a 37% advantage, which is not that hard to make up. in that case i was talking about, i am 90% sure i even spent less money than the d2 school did.

My best guess is that there is a 15% difference in the letter grade boundaries spanning all divisions.

Each school has a hidden prestige multiplier that WIS converts to a visible letter grade.  My theory is that if we take the lowest D3 d- prestige school to have a base value of 1 then once a school passes 1.15, they will become a D school.  Each 1/3 of a letter grade boundary is 15% higher than the previous one.  This would make a D3 A+ school lie between 4.652 and 5.350.  A D2 A+ school would be between 24.891 and 28.625 while D1 A+ schools would be 133.176 and above.

A 15% per 1/3 letter grade would equate to a 52.1% for a full letter grade difference which would align with your theory.  I think all recruiting effort is calculated by taking your hidden prestige multiplier, dividing it by 160 (which I believe would be a cap to D1 A+) and multiplying by the recruiting weight of the HV or CV to give overall recruiting effort.

Now how to calculate your school's hidden prestige number I don't have any idea how that would work .

coach billy when you do think the HV to CV value (bang for the buck) switches.  Is it a hard switch at 360 miles?  (I Realize that you don't have all the answers just looking for your wisdom!)  

Also are there times when you deviate against this strategy?  (HV for under 360 and CV over 360 miles?)  Thanks!  

Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 9:41:00 PM (view original):
My best guess is that there is a 15% difference in the letter grade boundaries spanning all divisions.

Each school has a hidden prestige multiplier that WIS converts to a visible letter grade.  My theory is that if we take the lowest D3 d- prestige school to have a base value of 1 then once a school passes 1.15, they will become a D school.  Each 1/3 of a letter grade boundary is 15% higher than the previous one.  This would make a D3 A+ school lie between 4.652 and 5.350.  A D2 A+ school would be between 24.891 and 28.625 while D1 A+ schools would be 133.176 and above.

A 15% per 1/3 letter grade would equate to a 52.1% for a full letter grade difference which would align with your theory.  I think all recruiting effort is calculated by taking your hidden prestige multiplier, dividing it by 160 (which I believe would be a cap to D1 A+) and multiplying by the recruiting weight of the HV or CV to give overall recruiting effort.

Now how to calculate your school's hidden prestige number I don't have any idea how that would work .

No way this is true. If it is, A+ D2 at ur 24.9 value against A+ d3 @ 5.35, D3 need to put in 5x value to match D2. Alot of coaches that have battled D3 v D2 knows this is way off the mark. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/22/2012 10:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 9:41:00 PM (view original):
My best guess is that there is a 15% difference in the letter grade boundaries spanning all divisions.

Each school has a hidden prestige multiplier that WIS converts to a visible letter grade.  My theory is that if we take the lowest D3 d- prestige school to have a base value of 1 then once a school passes 1.15, they will become a D school.  Each 1/3 of a letter grade boundary is 15% higher than the previous one.  This would make a D3 A+ school lie between 4.652 and 5.350.  A D2 A+ school would be between 24.891 and 28.625 while D1 A+ schools would be 133.176 and above.

A 15% per 1/3 letter grade would equate to a 52.1% for a full letter grade difference which would align with your theory.  I think all recruiting effort is calculated by taking your hidden prestige multiplier, dividing it by 160 (which I believe would be a cap to D1 A+) and multiplying by the recruiting weight of the HV or CV to give overall recruiting effort.

Now how to calculate your school's hidden prestige number I don't have any idea how that would work .

No way this is true. If it is, A+ D2 at ur 24.9 value against A+ d3 @ 5.35, D3 need to put in 5x value to match D2. Alot of coaches that have battled D3 v D2 knows this is way off the mark. 

Well if it isn't evenly spread out (say 10% at D2/D3 and 15% at D1), then there should be evidence of that (where a D2 A+++ team can't successfully recruit against a low end D1 team).  I'm not against saying it doesn't work this way (which is why I asked about the presence of a gap or not between divisions earlier).

And didn't you support that the full letter prestige multiplier is between 1.7 and 1.8 at least (which would be an even larger difference).

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/22/2012 10:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 9:41:00 PM (view original):
My best guess is that there is a 15% difference in the letter grade boundaries spanning all divisions.

Each school has a hidden prestige multiplier that WIS converts to a visible letter grade.  My theory is that if we take the lowest D3 d- prestige school to have a base value of 1 then once a school passes 1.15, they will become a D school.  Each 1/3 of a letter grade boundary is 15% higher than the previous one.  This would make a D3 A+ school lie between 4.652 and 5.350.  A D2 A+ school would be between 24.891 and 28.625 while D1 A+ schools would be 133.176 and above.

A 15% per 1/3 letter grade would equate to a 52.1% for a full letter grade difference which would align with your theory.  I think all recruiting effort is calculated by taking your hidden prestige multiplier, dividing it by 160 (which I believe would be a cap to D1 A+) and multiplying by the recruiting weight of the HV or CV to give overall recruiting effort.

Now how to calculate your school's hidden prestige number I don't have any idea how that would work .

No way this is true. If it is, A+ D2 at ur 24.9 value against A+ d3 @ 5.35, D3 need to put in 5x value to match D2. Alot of coaches that have battled D3 v D2 knows this is way off the mark. 

i agree with this, and to be honest bud, i have no idea what you are talking about. divide it by 160? why? 

Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 10:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/22/2012 10:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by buddhagamer on 8/22/2012 9:41:00 PM (view original):
My best guess is that there is a 15% difference in the letter grade boundaries spanning all divisions.

Each school has a hidden prestige multiplier that WIS converts to a visible letter grade.  My theory is that if we take the lowest D3 d- prestige school to have a base value of 1 then once a school passes 1.15, they will become a D school.  Each 1/3 of a letter grade boundary is 15% higher than the previous one.  This would make a D3 A+ school lie between 4.652 and 5.350.  A D2 A+ school would be between 24.891 and 28.625 while D1 A+ schools would be 133.176 and above.

A 15% per 1/3 letter grade would equate to a 52.1% for a full letter grade difference which would align with your theory.  I think all recruiting effort is calculated by taking your hidden prestige multiplier, dividing it by 160 (which I believe would be a cap to D1 A+) and multiplying by the recruiting weight of the HV or CV to give overall recruiting effort.

Now how to calculate your school's hidden prestige number I don't have any idea how that would work .

No way this is true. If it is, A+ D2 at ur 24.9 value against A+ d3 @ 5.35, D3 need to put in 5x value to match D2. Alot of coaches that have battled D3 v D2 knows this is way off the mark. 

Well if it isn't evenly spread out (say 10% at D2/D3 and 15% at D1), then there should be evidence of that (where a D2 A+++ team can't successfully recruit against a low end D1 team).  I'm not against saying it doesn't work this way (which is why I asked about the presence of a gap or not between divisions earlier).

And didn't you support that the full letter prestige multiplier is between 1.7 and 1.8 at least (which would be an even larger difference).

he was talking d1 prestige, so was i with 50%. people this d3/d2 values are SIGNIFICANTLY lower. not everybody but i think most...

I just divided by 160 just to keep it as a ratio but its only a theory.

If you guys are right, and you think D3/D2 are significantly more compacted together (ex. 10% or even less per 1/3 letter grade) wouldn't there be a huge problem trying to recruit as a D2 A+ versus low end D1 prestige?

So are you guys saying its like 10% for D3/D2 and 15% (or more) starting at D1 teams?

I would think we'd see this very late in the recruiting cycle when both teams have very little cash and jump onto the same recruit.

D2/D3, prestige factor is tiny. I had a huge battle in D3 about 10 seasons ago in Tark, where I dropped a little over 9k and my opponent dropped something like 11.3k. I was at sub 100 miles or something and my opponent was either within 250 or 360, not sure on this, but I was A+ D3 (coming off NC season with deep runs in previous season) against C+, and the battle wasn't decided until the final day of recruiting.

Anyway, we traded recruiting logs and I can barely tell if my A+ prestige had any effect.

that sounds about what i remember tianyi... i really wouldn't be surprised if the figure was less than 10% either. 

buddha - we are suggesting its more like 3%, and could even be less, in d2/d3 - and more like 15% in d1.

d2 teams do have a huge hill to climb battling d1, its mostly d2 vs d1 sims. humans have too much money in d1, 3x more, its such an advantage, a lot bigger than the 50% per grade preestige gap.