Posted by dino27 on 2/12/2020 8:32:00 PM (view original):
come to think of it if you didnt like john mccain's politics and you thought he was whining about something is he above criticism.
italyprof i dont know what you are talking about.......jill stein...tulsi gabbard ..i dont care what any of their background is..when you run for president
some people are not hoodwinked and smart people can know the truth or tell the truth when it smacks them in the head.

Yeah, I remember when a million people, myself included, were in NY's Central Park in June 1982 to oppose Reagan's nuclear weapons buildup as a danger to world peace. We started the Nuclear Freeze movement. It called on BOTH superpowers to stop the arms race.

Reagan called us dupes of Moscow, traitors, useful idiots of the Communists, Soviet agents, every slur in the book on our patriotism.

Then, five years later he did what we pressured him and the USSR to do: he met Gorbachev in Iceland and they ended the arms race, and did not just freeze, but dramatically reduced nuclear arsenals.

War with Russia, over the Ukraine, over Georgia, or the Baltic states, would mean that everyone you and I have ever met would die.

People who call for caution, for diplomacy, are not traitors. When did Democrats become Ronald Reagan pre-1987?

I am not voting for Gabbard, but I respect her and she is right about the wars we have been fighting, or rather, that a handful of Americans have been fighting while the rest cheer them on or forget about them when their Veterans' benefits are cut.

As for John McCain, I voted for Obama in 2008, but I always respected him, and consider his nominating Sarah Palin as VP a Greek tragedy: the right wing of the GOP told him they would run a third party candidate or a Christian Fundamentalist candidate against him if he picked Joe Lieberman, a centrist, Jewish Democrat that had run with Al Gore for VP. McCain wanted a unity ticket. Instead he had to bend to their will or would have been wiped out in a landslide. I am sure he later wished he had gone with his gut, lost anyway, but remained John McCain.

He was not above criticism. I criticized him. But I did not call him a whiner when, for example, he nobly fought against our government being associated with the torture of prisoners of war, having been one himself. He was right on that one. When he was wrong, as with some of his more bellicose foreign policy ideas, I said so, but I didn't think that he didn't have a right to say it. He wanted to fight North Korea? I thought it was a terrible idea, but he had earned the right to want to fight Communists, having been tortured every day by them in a prisoner of war camp.

Tulsi Gabbard is a patriot, not a traitior. You disagree with her? Okay. You want us to stay in Syria or Libya, or Afghanistan or Iraq, or to go into the Ukraine, okay. I think that's wrong, but you have a right to say it. But address Tulsi's ideas and say why they are wrong. Trump too by the way.

I think Trump is an awful person. Horrible. I think he is corrupt, that many of his statements are racist and sexist, etc. I think his tax cut was a disaster for working people and small business, and a handout to the CEOs, hedge fund managers, billionaires. I think his proposed cuts in Food Stamps, housing, schools are cruel and wrong. I think his policies and practices on the children of asylum seekers are inhuman, though I am not sure why the media has stopped reporting on these.

But he is right on trade with China, and I think he deserves credit for the stability of employment that we have at the moment, showing that, as I long thought, tariffs work as they did throughout US history until the 1980s and 90s when Reagan and Clinton pushed us into Free Trade.

I think he is right to avoid conflict with Russia, and no, I don't think they have something over him, as the massive, truly massive US wargames going on on Russia's borders in the next few weeks demonstrate - the Russians are actually freaked out about it, and I think it quite reckless frankly on our part.

I think he was right to end the TPP, and while I don't think much of the re-write of the new version of NAFTA, it is slightly better and even the AFL-CIO has said it is better. I am more skeptical, but he gets some credit there.

I won't vote for him. But I think it's his ideas - and Steve Bannon's - and his actual policies that should be criticized and fought against, not some demonized version of Trump that the media has invented.

I think the grounds for impeachment were a gray area - maybe impeachable. But he has done much worse things, and we should not even be close allies with the Ukraine frankly, and should recognize that Russia, having been invaded in 1812, 1914, 1941 and then surrounded by NATO after the Cold War (AFTER it dissolved the Warsaw Pact), has legitimate national security concerns about the nature of the regimes on its borders. Put a Chinese or Russian base in northern Mexico and see how Americans feel about it. So why impeach over that? To shore up Joe Biden, to make him seem THE opponent already of Trump. And later after saying that Trump is a clear and present danger to the country, why keep the articles of impeachment in the House instead of sending them immediately to the Senate? To keep two Senators, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, tied up in the trial in DC, so Biden and Buttigieg, non-Senators, were free to campaign in Iowa up to the final bell before the caucus.

I despise Trump, but that does not prevent me from seeing somewhat clearly, I hope, what he is doing that makes some sense, and what he is doing that is bad.

I vote Democratic but that does not mean I think: Democrat=good.

I don't think I drink the Kool-Aid. Our many miliitary interventions have nearly bankrupted our country, have stirred hatred of us throughout the Middle East, worn out our people, cost us many young lives, and the lives of many civilians in country after country, have endangered the world, and have enabled China to rise as a challenger, a terrible dictatorship but one that by staying out of such adventures, has built up its own country and now threatens to spread its undemocratic model around the world.

Jill Stein, Ralph Nader, Bernie Sanders, Tulsi Gabbard (as a vet her especially !), Noam Chomsky, and yes, even Donald Trump in his own, distorted way, have a right to challenge these foreign policy disasters. So did Barack Obama when he was still a candidate and opposed the Iraq War. Today in LIbya, there is a slave trade of people who wanted to immigrate through Libya to Europe. A slave trade. It did not exist under Ghaddafi, whatever you want to say about him. That happened because of our military attack on that country, and our destruction of their political order. Why is it wrong to say that? And who has a right to call us traitors for thinking that?

And more to the point, when did Democrats and liberals become the pro-war party? When did being for peace and diplomacy become treason, not just to the rabid anti-communist right, but to the liberal center? I beat up for opposing George W. Bush's war in Iraq, for opposing the President. Now those in the other party label opponents of war as unfaithful to the country. Incredible. And worrying.

Posted by bronxcheer on 2/13/2020 4:57:00 AM (view original):
Miss Lindsey Graham served---- I'll call her a whiner

So you are saying that you are a veteran of war? I honor your sacrifice for our country. Unless, you know, you are not.

Nice again Prof. THIS is why a I always read what you post.
Dino. Have you ever given any thought to the idea that MAYBE it's the Clinton clan (HRC) that IS the corrupt one, that is really the problem?

I'm pretty sure you think the Republican Party is full of crooks, corrupt cowards, and "traitors" beholding to party rather than the Constitution.
Why not the group of power insiders within the Dem. Party--- (Clinton Clan). Why don't you suspect THEM in the same manner?
IMO, you damn well should.

THIS is one of the many reasons I was a supporter and had hopes for Gabbard.
I'm looking for someone that can BEGIN to get past this chasm within the Country. That can begin to unite us as Americans, without Party as the 1st determinate.

FWIW. Had McCain nominated Lieberman rather than the super stupidist move of Palin, I MIGHT have voted for HIM, rather than Obama.
I suspect there may have been millions more just like ME, that year.
Besides, It's Obama's fault we now have Biden THINKING HE is next!!
The Dems. will guarantee a 2nd Term for Trump IF they fall for the Biden gambit.

Agreed!

Separate item.

I get kinda annoyed when attending a public event like a D'Backs game and we're "asked" (peer pressure is enormous in this situation) to stand and Honor our EMT's, firefighters, police officers, etc. and they refer to them as "heroes" and we go thru this process of "acknowledging their service" as so-called heroes by standing during America the Beautiful or some such ceremony.

Now, I have NOTHING against our 1st res-ponders nor honest hard working officers and fireman.
However, in my view they are DOING THEIR JOB, AND they get paid for it...........fairly handsomely.
Many get to retire early with nice lifetime pensions at a very early age and THEN have a 2nd career and earn MORE income.
All well and good.

However, (again) it's their JOB, however dangerous or unpleasant and it is (precisely) why they get paid fairly handsomely over their lifetimes.
They are not (collectively) heroes. No more so than any other person doing a JOB that society values. Garbage men are important, too.
Try living in a big city with no garbage collection for a period of time!

The REAL HEROES, IMO, are the silent and faceless Moms and Dads all over our land doing their utmost best to raise their children well, instill a thirst for learning, impart personal responsibility, compassion, humility, COURAGE, persistence, Love, and all the other individual components that are required in a human being of good citizenship, and character. Many Moms and Dads do this alone. With little to NO help from our Government........ or even a Church or social net to assist them.

THOSE folks IMO, are the REAL Heroes. The ones giving our Country and OUR Constitution a chance of succeeding long term.
Most of them ask for nothing............most just want to be left alone to love and rear their children.

The very LEAST we as a citizenry can do to honor them is to be educated citizens ourselves and MAKE SURE we protect our Nation's honor and integrity by making damn sure we KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING when we cast our vote for elected officials.

When we fail to be knowledgeable educated voters, when we give in to the easy temptation to get our information from sources we already know will reassure us in and of our erroneous opinions, when we cast UNINFORMED votes we endanger everything that has made this Nation survive, and we endanger the ability of those Moms and Dads to raise good citizens for the future...........because their Children are watching US, all of us!!

Honor the REAL HEROES. Get informed. Vote smart.
Don't let the greatest Nation ever conceived become just another Banana Republic wherein every Parent is at the mercy of the whims of some power wielding despot with an out of control ego and no shame.

THIS is NOT the Phillipines. NOT YET, anyway.
And the next time you see some single Mom in some grocery store trying to keep things together and you see her carefully shopping off of some list and you notice her trying to decide how many diapers she can afford...........IF you have an extra dollar or two, THANK HER for raising responsible children and buy her a pack of diapers..............it's the least you can do to honor our REAL HEROES!!

End of today's rant.

So agree Bob. Nice rant!

TY.

we each have our own truth.
i think that police officers and fireman and people in the military as a class are heroes
and i happily rise to salute them.
i have never and would never denigrate someone's military service.
anyone that becomes a politician is fair game for their political views.
there is and should be a right to third party candidates.
i can disrespect the hell out of said candidates for their motives.
imo tulsi gabbard is ideologically and otherwise aligned with putin's russia......im not getting into her head.
supporting trump on impeachment while running as a dem was a new proof to me....of her machinations.
she is still running to set up machines in all the states that will be there for her 3rd party run.

Wow. Crazy theory IMO.

And you ARE trying to get into her head.

Her votes on the impeachment may have been a LOT of things as far as rationale go. Who knows? She didn't really explain them IMO.
At least not to my satisfaction.

What they were for sure............ was a copout! An unwillingness to take a stand.
A LACK of leadership and spine, me thinks.
A desire to play all sides, straddle the fence.
It was uncourageous IMO.............and COST HER my support.
Even though I agree with Her stand on military intervention AND had hopes she could reach across the divide and heal.
Ultimately, I determined She didn't have what it took to REALLY lead and heal.

I'm not seeing that anywhere right now, to be honest.
As I've said, IF it became a Biden/Trump/3rd party contest, I'd quickly and easily support the 3rd party candidate.............even IF it was Gabbard........which I doubt is her "plan".
I think it's more likely to be Jeff Flake, or an outsider Dem.
I kinda wish that Evan MC.?? guy would run again. I probably should have voted for him in 2016.
He was probably the most honest of the potential candidates and clearly had the courage to be a leader.
My bad, likely. I should have helped him get known as much as I could.
Would have been better than what we ended up with, for sure!!

You have said I was wrong about gabardine since she got in but I have predicted right all along and then you gave up on her you don’t think it is incredibly weird and notable that the one person who has been compared to Jill stein would protect trump.
must be just a coincidence.

"i think that police officers and fireman and people in the military as a class are heroes
and i happily rise to salute them.
i have never and would never denigrate someone's military service."

Dino, you might want to think about that statement a little harder.
The German soldiers at one time were called Nazis. They did the bidding of an evil despot. They effectively committed horrid acts WHILE soldiers "just doing their jobs".
Hitler had his own "police officers"..........would you stand and salute them?
Our cops deserve our support, so do the Firemen and women. But they get well paid!
Far better than soldiers. ever talk to an EMT?
How about an old EMT?
Bet not, in that last case because they are VERY rare. They retire with good pensions before they get very old IF they're any good at their job (are a good employee!!)

This is exactly WHY it annoys me so much. It's false. Everybody stands up and abides by the societal peer pressure and "honors" folks who get paid well for DOING their JOB!! That isn't heroic at all.
Honor a carpenter then. THEY do their jobs, too. It's just as hard and just as necessary.

As I said, Heroes do what they do because they ARE who they are and they WANT to do right by others.
Parents who care and raise humans with personal responsibility, integrity, and honor ARE the real heroes.
AND they don't clamor for acclaim or GET applauded at ballgames in our society.
In fact, our so-called leaders and so-called "heroes" seem to do everything they can to make it HARDER for parents to raise children of quality.
Elevating service to Country or Society OVER the sacred trust of responsible parenting is a societal condition any despot would love to bring about in the minds of his "subjects".
IF I had a buck for every time some authority figure has done something morally reprehensible while "doing his job" I'd be rich enough to run for POTUS myself.
"It's just my job" out of the mouth of someone employing governmental authority (FORCE!) unjustly are the words of a "tool" in the employ of a "slave holder" or a despotic Gov't.

I'd bet it was exactly what the plantation "foreman" said to the slave while whipping him. It's "just my job"............don't mean nothin' personal.......I'm just doing what the masser told me to do........... you understand........don't be angry at me!! I'm just a tool.

And THAT is just an excuse!

Yes, God Gave Me A Gun.
But She also gave me a mind and a spine.
I try and use both. And that means I don't stand in blind "respect" of folks being paid to do a job.
That's easy, not heroic.
I stand for those who exhibit REAL Courage and Real Honor.
Like that single Dad taking the responsibility to raise the children he Fathered, no MATTER what the circumstances be!
HE be the HERO.
Not the guy sleeping all nite at the fire station for pretty good bucks!!
HE'S got it easy in comparison.
My 2 cents.

Posted by dino27 on 2/13/2020 3:09:00 PM (view original):
You have said I was wrong about gabardine since she got in but I have predicted right all along and then you gave up on her you don’t think it is incredibly weird and notable that the one person who has been compared to Jill stein would protect trump.
must be just a coincidence.

Dino. I must be a simpleton. What in hell has Jill Stein to do with Tulsi Gabbard??

Are you signaling some sort of belief that you think Jill Stein caused HRC to lose the election in 2016??
That's completely idiotic.
HRC was the reason HRC LOST in 2016.
She'd have lost that election to ANY Republican I think.
Nearly everyone I know had trouble voting for her. Some held their nose and did so, but many did not. Some like me, voted Johnson (or maybe even Stein) but many just voted Trump. Hence the results.

It'd be kinda interesting to hear from some northeaster republican supporter on this. (like Boris CCCP1014)
As those of you in the NE are almost completely liberal, it is my opinion that many of you'se just don't understand the rest of the Country.
You don't interact with the "others" much because there ain't any hardly.

I'm a classic liberal living in a VERY right-wing area. It gives me the opportunity to understand where they're nuts, but also where their fears originate and where they are onto something..........those few times when their complaints are justified.
I've been to a Tea Party meeting. It was quite enlightening. And SCARY!!

Really stupid people who absolutely believe they KNOW what they don't know scare the bejesus out of me!!
The TP-ers were/are just smart enough to figure out that our society ain't what they thought it was supposed to be AND by God they's gonna blame someone else!!

So's they blame the easy targets. Blame it on the libs. and their toleration for the colored's. "It's ALL these crazy new brown folks fault. They've ruined the Country"
"Taken over the construction industry", etc.
The TP-ers are just smart enough to know times have changed, but not smart enough (or dedicated to study enough) to learn just WHO the real enemy is, just WHO and WHAT has caused them to get left behind.
That's because they won't/don't like the real answer.
The problem was us, all along.
Laziness of intellect and complacency about our Freedom AND our Constitutional Republic.

We MUST stop shouting at each other and start really thinking. Critical thinking.
We're at a crossroads........... and I for one ain't very hopeful.

Let me quote a song from one of Arizona's finest songwriters.
There was this band called The Refreshments once upon a time.
They scored a major hit back in the day, even had a regularly rotated VH1 video for a song called "Banditos"
Written by a fine Arizonan with roots here in the desert SW, Roger Clyne.
The hook in the chorus goes:

"Everybody knows the world is full of stupid people"

Maybe so, but most of us tend to forget how generally stupid we are.
We couldn't even figure that perhaps, the folks living on the prairies and in the forests of the continent MIGHT have some pertinent knowledge about how best to live in this place. But no, that streak of arrogant ignorance that exists within the minds of anglo-saxons caused us to view them as "savages" with no redeeming values, even as we behaved like the savages and robbed and cheated them when we couldn't exterminate them.

Perhaps, that moral dishonor has been the albatross around us ever since.
It revealed how little the solemn vows of our Gov't mean.
Ask any Nez Perce, or Chiracahua about the VALUE of a signed treaty with the U.S. of America.
They'll tell you it ain't worth spit!
Many soldiers killed lots of Indians on behalf of OUR unjust Gov't.
Women and Children of peaceful tribes were massacred senselessly by SOLDIERS----------just "doing their job"
I ain't standing for ANY of them.
THEY served as pawns of an unjust Gov't.........committing extermination of one of God's tribes of creation.
I won't stand for them, and I believe Custer got what he deserved.

Stay well Dino.
Read The Patriot Chiefs by Alvin Josephy, Jr.
You'll gain some comprehension about how evil can be done by good men in the name of Country (Manifest Destiny lol).

I bet Eva Braun might have an interesting take on this.