HEAR YE, HEAR YE!!!

I hereby declare this the longest running 'tard thread in the history of WifS!!!!

Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
I'm sorry, but this is all so stupid. The insinuation that BABIP is based on luck is = to saying that batting average is based on luck. That a hitter just strolls up to the plate and swings, and once he makes contact, he has no control over which direction the ball goes in, how hard it's hit, etc.

So in other words, Ty Cobb was just the luckiest hitter that ever lived.

Hitters have control over their BABIP. Pitchers don't.

Posted by tecwrg on 2/25/2012 4:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
I'm sorry, but this is all so stupid. The insinuation that BABIP is based on luck is = to saying that batting average is based on luck. That a hitter just strolls up to the plate and swings, and once he makes contact, he has no control over which direction the ball goes in, how hard it's hit, etc.

So in other words, Ty Cobb was just the luckiest hitter that ever lived.

No, that's not what he's saying at all.

He's saying that the pitchers who threw to him were unlucky over the course of 24 years and 13,000+ plate appearances.  No skill involved at all on anybody's part.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying that Cobb was a great hitter, and that his BABIP was probably just as good against bad pitchers as it was against good pitchers.

This thread essentially comes down to 2 things:
1. How much control does a pitcher have over the outcome of a plate appearance?
2. How do you define being a better player?

After 700+ posts, no one's been convinced.  That's not going to change any time soon.  So let's drop this.

Posted by jrd_x on 2/25/2012 4:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
I'm sorry, but this is all so stupid. The insinuation that BABIP is based on luck is = to saying that batting average is based on luck. That a hitter just strolls up to the plate and swings, and once he makes contact, he has no control over which direction the ball goes in, how hard it's hit, etc.

So in other words, Ty Cobb was just the luckiest hitter that ever lived.

Hitters have control over their BABIP. Pitchers don't.

No, no, no, no amigo. No backtracking now. You clearly said that once a ball is in play, it's only defense and luck that determines if it's a hit or not. Therefore, BABIP AND BA are based totally on luck and the quality of the opposing defense.

So the batting leaders each year are just the hitters who got the luckiest.

No it's different for hitters. I haven't done it in a few years, but if you look at a list of hitters by BABIP I don't think you'll see any surprises.

Posted by jm1618 on 2/25/2012 4:33:00 PM (view original):
I'd agree that BABIP isn't a perfect measure of luck.  But it would seem that the batter has more control over which direction the ball goes than the pitcher.

So the hitter has some control over how he hits the ball, but the pitcher has no control over how well struck a pitch is?

Do you realize how completely and utterly retarded that sounds?

Posted by jrd_x on 2/25/2012 4:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 4:24:00 PM (view original):
I'm sorry, but this is all so stupid. The insinuation that BABIP is based on luck is = to saying that batting average is based on luck. That a hitter just strolls up to the plate and swings, and once he makes contact, he has no control over which direction the ball goes in, how hard it's hit, etc.

So in other words, Ty Cobb was just the luckiest hitter that ever lived.

Hitters have control over their BABIP. Pitchers don't.

They have some magical voodoo that controls the fielders?

Seems like some enterprising pitcher would buy that potion from them and throw no-hitters.

BTW, jrdx is a complete idiot that talks in circles and contradicts himself.

The ONLY reason to address him is to make him look stupid.

Why do you think I'm still here?

how come there is two tec's in here? is that to confused jrd even more?

Posted by tecwrg on 2/25/2012 5:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jm1618 on 2/25/2012 4:33:00 PM (view original):
I'd agree that BABIP isn't a perfect measure of luck.  But it would seem that the batter has more control over which direction the ball goes than the pitcher.

So the hitter has some control over how he hits the ball, but the pitcher has no control over how well struck a pitch is?

Do you realize how completely and utterly retarded that sounds?

Check the stats.  It seems like a hitters BABIP stays much more constant than a pitchers.

If you look at the last 20 years with a minimum 5000 PA, Jeter has the highest BABIP.  He is consistantly above average.  He is followed by Ichiro, Miguel Cabrera, Julio Franco, Bobby Abreu, Tony Gwynn, and Manny Ramirez.

Franco is the only one that isn't or won't be a Hall of Famer. 

EDIT: I'm not arguing that a pitcher doesn't have control over how well a ball is hit.  He doesn't control where on the field it goes and if there is a fielder there to catch it.

Posted by Jtpsops on 2/25/2012 5:16:00 PM (view original):
how come there is two tec's in here? is that to confused jrd even more?

Is that even possible?

Posted by tecwrg on 2/25/2012 5:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jm1618 on 2/25/2012 4:33:00 PM (view original):
I'd agree that BABIP isn't a perfect measure of luck.  But it would seem that the batter has more control over which direction the ball goes than the pitcher.

So the hitter has some control over how he hits the ball, but the pitcher has no control over how well struck a pitch is?

Do you realize how completely and utterly retarded that sounds?

Way to misread what I said.  I never said a pitcher has no control over how well-struck a pitch is.  I said that the batter has more control than the pitcher.  It's the batter who decides whether or not to swing, when to start his swing, how high or low he's going to swing the bat, and the general direction he's trying to hit the ball.  The pitcher, on the other hand, can make pitches that tend to cause batters to hit the ball poorly, but he can't guarantee that the batter will be fooled.

Batters can guarantee a hit?  Or a well-struck ball?