Posted by moy23 on 2/6/2011 2:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by andru2797 on 2/6/2011 2:04:00 PM (view original):
and really? ESPN?? what do they know about the nhl.

I was thinking the same thing about you ;)  


The only D-Man better than Buff right now is Lidstrom - even with the slide.  Buff is 25 years old.  It took Keith until age 27 to become a consistent player.  With Buffs size and 2-way play ability he will be unstoppable.  He already was unstoppable in the stanley cup finals.... Toews and Kane were non-factors the 1st 4 games of the 6 game series. I can't think of another Hawk with the balls to take Pronger out... twice.

Shea Weber...Duncan Keith...Drew Doughty...Nick Lidstrom...Chris Pronger...Zdeno Chara...all better defensemen than Buff...and that's just off the top of my head.

Buff has no two way play to speak of. He's average at best defensively. To say that Jonathan Toews is not the heart and soul of the Blackhawks and that Buff was is like saying Lidstrom is not Detroit's MVP, it was really Sergei Fedorov. While Fedorov was important, the Wings still won without him. Maybe not the year after, but they did. Same with Toews, Keith and Co. No one including me expected them to repeat. But we did all say they will contend for the next 10 years.

I'll even go as far as to say that if the Canucks don't win it this season, the Hawks (with Toews as captain) will win 2 more before the Canucks win their first. Anyone man enough to take that bet?

Posted by andru2797 on 2/6/2011 7:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 2/6/2011 2:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by andru2797 on 2/6/2011 2:04:00 PM (view original):
and really? ESPN?? what do they know about the nhl.

I was thinking the same thing about you ;)  


The only D-Man better than Buff right now is Lidstrom - even with the slide.  Buff is 25 years old.  It took Keith until age 27 to become a consistent player.  With Buffs size and 2-way play ability he will be unstoppable.  He already was unstoppable in the stanley cup finals.... Toews and Kane were non-factors the 1st 4 games of the 6 game series. I can't think of another Hawk with the balls to take Pronger out... twice.

Shea Weber...Duncan Keith...Drew Doughty...Nick Lidstrom...Chris Pronger...Zdeno Chara...all better defensemen than Buff...and that's just off the top of my head.

Buff has no two way play to speak of. He's average at best defensively. To say that Jonathan Toews is not the heart and soul of the Blackhawks and that Buff was is like saying Lidstrom is not Detroit's MVP, it was really Sergei Fedorov. While Fedorov was important, the Wings still won without him. Maybe not the year after, but they did. Same with Toews, Keith and Co. No one including me expected them to repeat. But we did all say they will contend for the next 10 years.

I'll even go as far as to say that if the Canucks don't win it this season, the Hawks (with Toews as captain) will win 2 more before the Canucks win their first. Anyone man enough to take that bet?

get your head examined...

Pronger has missed half the season and the other half he's either played recovering from surgery or with a busted up foot - he is not one of the best this season.

Doughty has missed a few games and has been a disappointment (28 points) after such a great season last year.

Keith has 29 points and a -2 +/-. Down from 69 points last season.



None of those three have a shot at the Norris trophy this season.

By two way play - I was referring to playing 2 positions on the roster - forward and/or defenseman. Not many players can do that. And his defense is average - so was paul coffey's but that hasn't stopped him from being considered one of the best d-men to play the game. Buff has a powerful shot and he is immovable in front of the net. Thats lethal.

Its amazing how hawks fans can't admit they made a mistake dealing Buff. Instead they are looking to rationalize the loss.

Paul Coffey was the best skater of his generation, which took a lot of sting out of his not-so-great defense.  Besides, Edmonton didn't need to play a whole lot of D when they were scoring 7 a night and had Grant Fuhr in net.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 2/7/2011 10:33:00 AM (view original):
Paul Coffey was the best skater of his generation, which took a lot of sting out of his not-so-great defense.  Besides, Edmonton didn't need to play a whole lot of D when they were scoring 7 a night and had Grant Fuhr in net.

well - this proves my point. you can't admit the hawks erred in giving up buff, you can only rationalize the loss.

They had no choice to deal him and got a great return.  The guy I most wanted to keep was Ladd.

moy don't get me wrong...I'll never claim that they don't miss Buff or any of the others. But to say that Buff was their best player, heart & soul, or the ONLY reason they won a Cup is just being a blind hockey fan. He was a major factor in the playoffs, but so were Patrick Sharp, Joanthan Toews, Antti Niemi, Duncan Keith and perhaps above all, Joel Quenneville. I have always admitted that they are not as good a team as they were last season. That much was always obvious. However I do believe they kept all the right players. To keep Byfuglien, they would have had to get rid of any two of Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Hossa, and Hjalmarsson. I'll take any pair from that group over just Byfuglien.

As per your best defenseman claim, I'll admit I missed the "right now" part of your statement. That's why I rattled off the names I did who I think are better defensemen overall than Byfuglien. However to crown ANYONE, let alone Byfuglien, a Norris trophy winner after 50 games is non-sensical. If he keeps going the way he has the last nearly two months, he'll barely reach 50 points by season's end.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 2/7/2011 2:32:00 PM (view original):
They had no choice to deal him and got a great return.  The guy I most wanted to keep was Ladd.

no choice? there is always a choice. They could have kept buff and played less than 23 players until a deal could be made elsewhere (like NJ did), they could have had some deals for campbells contract they felt were unacceptable and declined, they could have dealt hjarlasson, sharp, etc... they chose to give up buff.

flyers had cap issues too - they chose to deal gagne to get $5mil in cap space.

Posted by andru2797 on 2/7/2011 2:40:00 PM (view original):
moy don't get me wrong...I'll never claim that they don't miss Buff or any of the others. But to say that Buff was their best player, heart & soul, or the ONLY reason they won a Cup is just being a blind hockey fan. He was a major factor in the playoffs, but so were Patrick Sharp, Joanthan Toews, Antti Niemi, Duncan Keith and perhaps above all, Joel Quenneville. I have always admitted that they are not as good a team as they were last season. That much was always obvious. However I do believe they kept all the right players. To keep Byfuglien, they would have had to get rid of any two of Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Hossa, and Hjalmarsson. I'll take any pair from that group over just Byfuglien.

As per your best defenseman claim, I'll admit I missed the "right now" part of your statement. That's why I rattled off the names I did who I think are better defensemen overall than Byfuglien. However to crown ANYONE, let alone Byfuglien, a Norris trophy winner after 50 games is non-sensical. If he keeps going the way he has the last nearly two months, he'll barely reach 50 points by season's end.

come on - Buff makes $3 mil this season. would have HAD to get rid of any two of Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Hossa, and Hjalmarsson?

For Campbell or Hossa's contract alone you could have kept Ladd, Buff, AND Versteeg.

yes - my defense claim was 'right now'. Thats why he's in the 2011 norris cup running. I'm not saying he is the greatest ever. He's not.

Posted by holer on 2/7/2011 8:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 2/7/2011 9:47:00 AM (view original):
By two way play - I was referring to playing 2 positions on the roster - forward and/or defenseman. Not many players can do that. And his defense is average - so was paul coffey's but that hasn't stopped him from being considered one of the best d-men to play the game. Buff has a powerful shot and he is immovable in front of the net. Thats lethal.

Its amazing how hawks fans can't admit they made a mistake dealing Buff. Instead they are looking to rationalize the loss.

I really hope you're not comparing Buff to Paul Coffey, and considering how much I hate Paul Coffey...thats saying something.

I'm not.

Posted by mudbone1969 on 2/7/2011 8:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 2/7/2011 3:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mudbone1969 on 2/7/2011 2:32:00 PM (view original):
They had no choice to deal him and got a great return.  The guy I most wanted to keep was Ladd.

no choice? there is always a choice. They could have kept buff and played less than 23 players until a deal could be made elsewhere (like NJ did), they could have had some deals for campbells contract they felt were unacceptable and declined, they could have dealt hjarlasson, sharp, etc... they chose to give up buff.

flyers had cap issues too - they chose to deal gagne to get $5mil in cap space.

They had no choice.  Buff is going to get a big contract and the Hawks knew they couldn't afford him.  They sold high and got a big return on him.  It's laughable that you suggest they play with less than a full roster to accommodate him.  Dealing Sharp would have been the apex of idiocy, as he's the superior player by far.    They had NO offers for Campbell, don't kid yourself.  Besides, Campbell is far more important to the Hawks defensive gameplan than Buff ever could be.

I'm not suggesting what they do or how they do it.  I'm suggesting they DID have choices... and I'm telling you they fucked up trading away buff.  what will it take for you to agree - the hawks missing the playoffs and a norris trophy for buff and you still will probably cling to your weak rationalizations.

buff unsignable?  so why would a player that has never scored more than 36 points in his career be unsignable for the hawks?  Giroux signed 3 more years at $3.75 mil each - buff probably would have signed for the same $ if the hawks offered. 

btw - I'm watching the thrashers game - buff hit a nice 60' slap shot for his 17th goal.  How many goals has Keith scored this season? 

Goals are not indicative of a defenseman's performance.  I'd take Keith every day of the week and twice on Sunday over Buff on the blue line.  Anyone who wouldn't doesn't know **** about hockey.  BTW, a 60' slapshot for a goal is a soft goal.  Nothing special at all about it.

They hit a homerun on the Buff deal.  Big time.

Yes, unsignable.  As a power forward...which he would still be here...her would be too expensive for us, especially with Seabrook due for a contract.  He's already over $3M and will get a hefty raise.

Hawks won't miss the playoffs.

Awesome defense by Keith on that backlund goal. At least he caught up to the guy that he let blow by him (albeit the puck was already in the net).